Clams, The Best Food for a Reef
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
I do believe that fresh feeding can be lot more beneficial than processed pellet or flake foods or frozen mysis.
I'm almost sure that those foods are made with the worst conditions available, as it's done with dogs or humans processed meals. If you think that manufacturers use the best quality ingredients to make for example mc nuggets you are going to be very disappointed...
They use the breast, the legs, and whatever comes to the blender.
And is one of the most important companies of the world. What can do little producers of ornamental fish food is just unimaginable. Not saying that they poison our fish, but we cannot trust either that is a good quality and nutritive source of food.
I would like to know apart from scallops mussels and clams other fish that can be beneficial for our fish and specially corals health.
Don't want a full pappone, but, I'm starting to believe that natural diet will bring lots of benefits to our systems. Bacteria. Fresh omega acids. Vitamins...etc..(yes, and microplastics and all that stuff)
By the way. If you want to feed your fish with the best commercial food available try DKI pellets and masstick feeding.
https://reefbuilders.com/2016/11/17/easyreef-dki-marine/
https://reefbuilders.com/2016/09/28/easy-reef-masstick-is-an-novel-way-to-feed-your-fish/
They are a Spanish manufacturer and I do know they use the best ingredients and processes.
I'm almost sure that those foods are made with the worst conditions available, as it's done with dogs or humans processed meals. If you think that manufacturers use the best quality ingredients to make for example mc nuggets you are going to be very disappointed...
They use the breast, the legs, and whatever comes to the blender.
And is one of the most important companies of the world. What can do little producers of ornamental fish food is just unimaginable. Not saying that they poison our fish, but we cannot trust either that is a good quality and nutritive source of food.
I would like to know apart from scallops mussels and clams other fish that can be beneficial for our fish and specially corals health.
Don't want a full pappone, but, I'm starting to believe that natural diet will bring lots of benefits to our systems. Bacteria. Fresh omega acids. Vitamins...etc..(yes, and microplastics and all that stuff)
By the way. If you want to feed your fish with the best commercial food available try DKI pellets and masstick feeding.
https://reefbuilders.com/2016/11/17/easyreef-dki-marine/
https://reefbuilders.com/2016/09/28/easy-reef-masstick-is-an-novel-way-to-feed-your-fish/
They are a Spanish manufacturer and I do know they use the best ingredients and processes.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
Cholesterol is of no consequence in fish. They live on whole fish and the liver in a fish can be a quarter of it's weight so a fish gets almost a quarter of it's meal as fish oil as that is what most of their liver is.
Cholesterol is bad for us because we are warm blooded and the solid fats can circulate through our blood. Cold blooded fish don't have that problem as they don't even have solid fat, it is mostly oil in a fish which would not clog their arteries. I don't know but I doubt fish get many heart attacks. Solid fats are not well digested in fish as their temperature is to low
Reference:
Me
You guys should go back to the beginning of this article, to the title. It doesn't say, "Clams are needed for fish health", or your" yellow tang will live for 12 years without clams" or "Clams are the only thing you should feed your fish". It says "Clams are the best food you can feed your fish" and I stand by that. If there was one single food I would use, it would be clams. LRS food doesn't count because it is a very good food that I use myself, but it is full of clams "and other things" so it is not one single food. Clams are.
MnFish, I don't want to go over it again but I am sure you remember my long thread on immunity where I linked quite a few studies that state fish need live bacteria to become and stay immune. If you don't need immune fish and don't care if they are susceptible to everything you can feed flakes, pellets or shoe soles.
This is what I personally do and I am sure my tank, although not the nicest looking one on here by far has been immune the longest by decades. Of course that doesn't prove much because it is circumstantial and I can't prove it.
But everyone who does not feed clams and has a 40 + year old tank with all immune, spawning fish, raise your hand.....Higher
A 12 year old tang is great but IMO all fish should "only" die of old age and anything else is a failure. The majority of fish we keep have a lifespan of about 10 or 12 years with some having a much shorter life span such as pipefish and seahorses. Bangai cardinals have one of the shortest lifespan of only about 3 or 4 years. Fish such as clowns can live 30 years and tangs can live about 15. Maybe much longer but I have only kept them that long so I can't be sure. A 12 year old yellow tang is very good by the way. Most people keep fish for a year and two and call that a success, but that is like a person dying as a teenager. Not to good IMO.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
A single serving of clams, or about 12 small clams, contains 80 milligrams of cholesterol, which represents less than a third of your daily limit -- a moderate amount of cholesterol.
You guys should go back to the beginning of this article, to the title. It doesn't say, "Clams are needed for fish health", or your" yellow tang will live for 12 years without clams" or "Clams are the only thing you should feed your fish". It says "Clams are the best food you can feed your fish" and I stand by that. If there was one single food I would use, it would be clams. LRS food doesn't count because it is a very good food that I use myself, but it is full of clams "and other things" so it is not one single food. Clams are.
MnFish, I don't want to go over it again but I am sure you remember my long thread on immunity where I linked quite a few studies that state fish need live bacteria to become and stay immune. If you don't need immune fish and don't care if they are susceptible to everything you can feed flakes, pellets or shoe soles.
This is what I personally do and I am sure my tank, although not the nicest looking one on here by far has been immune the longest by decades. Of course that doesn't prove much because it is circumstantial and I can't prove it.
But everyone who does not feed clams and has a 40 + year old tank with all immune, spawning fish, raise your hand.....Higher
Well
. First I liked the article. Without offending you or anyone else - I guess when an article is published - (and I hope a moderator will correct me if im wrong) that there should be at least some evidence/references. Otherwise - why not just start a thread?The article says 'absolutely the best food'. To me that implies that they are required to have as successful a tank as you do. I was trying to get you to answer whether 'frozen' clams are as good as 'fresh clams'. Since you are talking about freezing and slicing them. That alone will kill certain types of.bacteria - if they are repeatedly frozen and thawed even. more bacteria will die.
I also don't want to go over the immunity thing -but just a quick comment. IMHO, you are correct - fish need repeated exposure to 'parasites' to remain immune. They get that exposure by getting a very mild infection over and over. They do not get 'immunity' by eating bacteria or parasites. They do not get 'immunity' to bacteria by eating live bacteria - they get immunity by getting an infection and surviving it. My only point is there are huge amounts of bacteria in our tanks that fish are repeatedly exposed to. The main benefit of probiotics appears to be - that the probiotics colonize the intestines/GI tract preventing pathogens from taking hold.
As usual - and as many others have said in this thread - your information and insights are extremely valuable - and I never mean 'slight you'.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
This was "one" of my sources:
The Mods would not let me call it an article unless I had at least one source.
MN, you can not offend me on a fish site. First off I am a Geezer and beyond being offended. Second I am a combat Veteran with PTSD so it means very little to me if anyone contradicts me as I am not always correct and probably a little nuts.
This was started as a thread, then became an article.
It certainly does not imply that or anything else. Salmon is probably one of the best diets for us, but we don't need it. Broccoli or any other food no matter how good it is for us is not essential. We can live on hot dogs and pretzels as many people do. They can even spawn, but they are not fish even though they may smell the same.
They are exposed to bacteria every day as they are swimming in a soup of bacteria and parasites which they also consume every day as they eat whole fish. The bacteria and parasites they eat through their prey get processed in their kidney which is a huge part of their immune system unlike us where we have lymph nodes and bone marrow which fish don't have. That was in my immunity thread.
Quote:
[324]. According to these authors “probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance.”
The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes.
The Immune System Drugs in Fish:
Immune Function, Immunoassay, Drugs
Cavit Kum and Selim Sekkin
University of Adnan Menderes,
Turkey
The environment may be
the most critical component of the fish health matrix because environmental quality
influences the fish’s physiological well-being, species cultured, feeding regimes, rate of
growth, and ability to maintain natural and acquired resistance and immunity. Overall
physiological status of the fish host is determined by the husbandry practice,
environmental quality, the fish’s nutritional well-being and the pathogen, all of which
influence the natural resistance and acquired immunity of the host. It is common
knowledge that fish stressed by one of these factors are more susceptible to infection
(Magnadóttir, 2010; Plumb & Hanson, 2011).
www.intechopen.
Early in development, the entire kidney is involved in production of
immune cells and the early immune response. As the fish mature, blood flow through the
kidney is slow, and exposure to antigens occurs. There appears to be a concentration of
melanomacrophage centers are aggregates of reticular cells, macrophages, lymphocytes and
plasma cells; they may be involved in antigen trapping and may play a role in immunologic
memory (Galindo-Villegas & Hosokowa, 2004; Press et al., 1996;
Finally, stress in fish as a result of population density associated with cultivation and production management can increase circulating cortisol levels, generating a decrease in specific and nonspecific immunity and, therefore, making the fish prone to opportunistic pathogens (Brydges et al., 2009; Ramsay et al., 2009).
Probiotics are organisms or substances that contribute to the intestinal microbial balance. Fuller (1989) defined probiotics as live microbial feed supplements which exert beneficial effects on the host animal by improving its intestinal microbial balance.
This was one of my online sources
The Mods would not let me call it an article unless I had at least one source.
Maybe your wife would feel worse without the beneficial bacteria. I also give it to my wife who has MS and she says the same thing. But we don't know how they would feel without it.
MN, you can not offend me on a fish site. First off I am a Geezer and beyond being offended. Second I am a combat Veteran with PTSD so it means very little to me if anyone contradicts me as I am not always correct and probably a little nuts.
This was started as a thread, then became an article.
It certainly does not imply that or anything else. Salmon is probably one of the best diets for us, but we don't need it. Broccoli or any other food no matter how good it is for us is not essential. We can live on hot dogs and pretzels as many people do. They can even spawn, but they are not fish even though they may smell the same.
They are exposed to bacteria every day as they are swimming in a soup of bacteria and parasites which they also consume every day as they eat whole fish. The bacteria and parasites they eat through their prey get processed in their kidney which is a huge part of their immune system unlike us where we have lymph nodes and bone marrow which fish don't have. That was in my immunity thread.
Like offending me, you also can't "slight" me. We are all friends and hobbiests with almost the same ideas and goals.
Quote:
[324]. According to these authors “probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance.”
The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes.
The Immune System Drugs in Fish:
Immune Function, Immunoassay, Drugs
Cavit Kum and Selim Sekkin
University of Adnan Menderes,
Turkey
The environment may be
the most critical component of the fish health matrix because environmental quality
influences the fish’s physiological well-being, species cultured, feeding regimes, rate of
growth, and ability to maintain natural and acquired resistance and immunity. Overall
physiological status of the fish host is determined by the husbandry practice,
environmental quality, the fish’s nutritional well-being and the pathogen, all of which
influence the natural resistance and acquired immunity of the host. It is common
knowledge that fish stressed by one of these factors are more susceptible to infection
(Magnadóttir, 2010; Plumb & Hanson, 2011).
www.intechopen.
Early in development, the entire kidney is involved in production of
immune cells and the early immune response. As the fish mature, blood flow through the
kidney is slow, and exposure to antigens occurs. There appears to be a concentration of
melanomacrophage centers are aggregates of reticular cells, macrophages, lymphocytes and
plasma cells; they may be involved in antigen trapping and may play a role in immunologic
memory (Galindo-Villegas & Hosokowa, 2004; Press et al., 1996;
Finally, stress in fish as a result of population density associated with cultivation and production management can increase circulating cortisol levels, generating a decrease in specific and nonspecific immunity and, therefore, making the fish prone to opportunistic pathogens (Brydges et al., 2009; Ramsay et al., 2009).
Probiotics are organisms or substances that contribute to the intestinal microbial balance. Fuller (1989) defined probiotics as live microbial feed supplements which exert beneficial effects on the host animal by improving its intestinal microbial balance.
The human microbiome should not be underestimated.
I for one have been searching for clams in the shell, live or dead, and haven't been able to find any.
I for one have been searching for clams in the shell, live or dead, and haven't been able to find any.
Fish immunity involves far more than the kidney. And in any case no matter which organ the immune cells are in they work the same in fish and humans. Point was that freezing and especially freeze thawing kills bacteria. And 2 there is are plenty of bacteria present in the water of our tanks and certainly on the rocks etc the fish pick at. 3. Giving specific probiotics is not the same as giving random bacteria. In fish farms especially when antibiotics are used probiotics help. But they are not just any old bacteria. The references are interesting thabksThis was "one" of my sources:
This was one of my online sources
The Mods would not let me call it an article unless I had at least one source.
Maybe your wife would feel worse without the beneficial bacteria. I also give it to my wife who has MS and she says the same thing. But we don't know how they would feel without it.
MN, you can not offend me on a fish site. First off I am a Geezer and beyond being offended. Second I am a combat Veteran with PTSD so it means very little to me if anyone contradicts me as I am not always correct and probably a little nuts.
This was started as a thread, then became an article.
It certainly does not imply that or anything else. Salmon is probably one of the best diets for us, but we don't need it. Broccoli or any other food no matter how good it is for us is not essential. We can live on hot dogs and pretzels as many people do. They can even spawn, but they are not fish even though they may smell the same.
They are exposed to bacteria every day as they are swimming in a soup of bacteria and parasites which they also consume every day as they eat whole fish. The bacteria and parasites they eat through their prey get processed in their kidney which is a huge part of their immune system unlike us where we have lymph nodes and bone marrow which fish don't have. That was in my immunity thread.
Like offending me, you also can't "slight" me. We are all friends and hobbiests with almost the same ideas and goals.
Quote:
[324]. According to these authors “probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance.”
The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes.
The Immune System Drugs in Fish:
Immune Function, Immunoassay, Drugs
Cavit Kum and Selim Sekkin
University of Adnan Menderes,
Turkey
The environment may be
the most critical component of the fish health matrix because environmental quality
influences the fish’s physiological well-being, species cultured, feeding regimes, rate of
growth, and ability to maintain natural and acquired resistance and immunity. Overall
physiological status of the fish host is determined by the husbandry practice,
environmental quality, the fish’s nutritional well-being and the pathogen, all of which
influence the natural resistance and acquired immunity of the host. It is common
knowledge that fish stressed by one of these factors are more susceptible to infection
(Magnadóttir, 2010; Plumb & Hanson, 2011).
www.intechopen.
Early in development, the entire kidney is involved in production of
immune cells and the early immune response. As the fish mature, blood flow through the
kidney is slow, and exposure to antigens occurs. There appears to be a concentration of
melanomacrophage centers are aggregates of reticular cells, macrophages, lymphocytes and
plasma cells; they may be involved in antigen trapping and may play a role in immunologic
memory (Galindo-Villegas & Hosokowa, 2004; Press et al., 1996;
Finally, stress in fish as a result of population density associated with cultivation and production management can increase circulating cortisol levels, generating a decrease in specific and nonspecific immunity and, therefore, making the fish prone to opportunistic pathogens (Brydges et al., 2009; Ramsay et al., 2009).
Probiotics are organisms or substances that contribute to the intestinal microbial balance. Fuller (1989) defined probiotics as live microbial feed supplements which exert beneficial effects on the host animal by improving its intestinal microbial balance.
From an article: The major lymphoid tissues in teleost fishes are the kidney, thymus, spleen and mucosa-associated lymphoid tissues including the skin and gills. The brief histological description of these tissues focuses on the microenvironmental compartments that are important for the defence systems of the fishes. In the thymus, a distinction between an outer cortex paked with thymocytes and a less densely populated inner medulla is possible in some species. The mucosal tissues including the gut, skin and gills provide a barrier to the entry of pathogens and contain leucocyte populations responsible for local immune responses. An extensive network exists for the trapping of blood-borne substances mainly in the kidney and spleen but in some species other tissues such as the heart and liver are also involved. In the kidney and spleen, populations of lymphocytes and macrophages capable of mounting an immune response are situated close to sites of antigen trapping and often associated with accumulations of melanomacrophages. Species variation in the morphology of the immune system is to be expected, given the large number and diversity of species within the teleost fishes.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
I could have linked the entire article (like I did in the Immunity thread) but it is many pages long and sort of technical.
Freezing in a home freezer is not to bad on bacteria as you can tell by how fast clams stink if they thaw out after freezing. I mean, you would have to move if that happened in your home.
Commercial freezing is colder and that would kill more bacteria, but normal zero degree freezing just makes bacteria mad and thy slow down.
I prefer fresh clams and everything else but due to logistics, I normally freeze them. But I get them live.
In a few days I get my new knee and will have plenty of time to spend on the forum, but I will be in pain and much more cranky than I usually am.
Freezing in a home freezer is not to bad on bacteria as you can tell by how fast clams stink if they thaw out after freezing. I mean, you would have to move if that happened in your home.
Commercial freezing is colder and that would kill more bacteria, but normal zero degree freezing just makes bacteria mad and thy slow down.
I prefer fresh clams and everything else but due to logistics, I normally freeze them. But I get them live.
In a few days I get my new knee and will have plenty of time to spend on the forum, but I will be in pain and much more cranky than I usually am.
Good luck with your surgeryI could have linked the entire article (like I did in the Immunity thread) but it is many pages long and sort of technical.
Freezing in a home freezer is not to bad on bacteria as you can tell by how fast clams stink if they thaw out after freezing. I mean, you would have to move if that happened in your home.
Commercial freezing is colder and that would kill more bacteria, but normal zero degree freezing just makes bacteria mad and thy slow down.
I prefer fresh clams and everything else but due to logistics, I normally freeze them. But I get them live.
In a few days I get my new knee and will have plenty of time to spend on the forum, but I will be in pain and much more cranky than I usually am.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
Thanks, I am looking forward to it. I want as many new parts as my insurance will pay for. Maybe they can install grease fittings to keep them working well with no squeaks.
Paul, you make my day. I got hungry for a shrimp creole today, so I bought a bag of live aquacultured mussels to make my stock from local seafood counter in Austin. Aquacultured mussels are flown live all over the world. In Austin, Tx I buy them for $0.10 each. Any major food chain should have live seafood counter with live bivalves. I can get mussels, oysters and clams 12 months out of the year. I usually buy a dozen mussels that last a week in the refrigerator. I put some live in the tank. Within two days, copepods & fish devoured the flesh.
I may have you beat in the titanium inventory: two titanium knees and titanium wire in both arms. No grease zerts required.
I may have you beat in the titanium inventory: two titanium knees and titanium wire in both arms. No grease zerts required.
Last edited:
OP
OP
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 16,771
- Reaction score
- 55,844
- Review score
- +0 /0 /-0
- Location
- Long Island NY
Patrick, I can walk 100 yards from my house and take mussels off the rocks. But it is 30 degrees so I buy them. Mussels are very cheap all year, oysters are much more expensive even though they collect them right here. Shrimp we get fro the Gulf as they don't live here. We don't buy or eat anything farmed and absolutely nothing from Asia.
Patrick, I can walk 100 yards from my house and take mussels off the rocks. But it is 30 degrees so I buy them. Mussels are very cheap all year, oysters are much more expensive even though they collect them right here. Shrimp we get fro the Gulf as they don't live here. We don't buy or eat anything farmed and absolutely nothing from Asia.
I look forward to dragging my toes in the sand of Long Island Sound to harvest clams for the cook out on the beach. After a total knee replacement, water therapy works wonders without the stress of extra weight. Repetition & resistance become important. Your planned diving trip is a good thing.
Last edited:
I am always hungry for seafood.
My local grocery store didn’t have fresh clams, so I will be heading out to a different store this weekend...for myself and the fish. Being in Pittsburgh the only clams I might find in the rivers I probably wouldn’t want to eat lol. Although there are plenty of invasive zebra mussels.
Similar threads
- Poll
