Can Lanthanum raise phosphates?

[nim6us]

My water chemistry has been solid nearly all year, but recently I took an extended trip and came back to really high phosphates. Probably a combination of the filter cups being removed and tank sitter being a little heavy handed with the food. I usually like to keep my PO4 between 0.05 - 0.1. I did two large water changes over the next two weeks however I found it was sitting at 0.22 which was a little high for me.

I had used Phosphat-E before with success in the past and thought I'd do so again. However after breaking the dose up over the course of 3 days I found my corals were REALLY ticked off. Actually a large colony of birds nest that was almost 2 years old and 1 foot across completely melted (see below).

This melting happened last night, I removed the whole thing and changed my filter cups. I gave it the night to settle but today checked my phosphate and found this and they're now at 0.45!!

My question is; can lanthanum actually cause my phosphates to rise? Is that what killed this colony and upset everything? Or could it be something unrelated that caused the colony death and the higher phosphate is just a symptom?

I've never had phosphates this high and it's really making me nervous, I've purchased some TM Elimi-Phos Rapid in case the Phosphate-E was "off". But now I'm wondering if more lanthanum is going to make it worse.

Extra info:

• I dosed in the sump, in the chamber where my skimmer sits
• Only my PO4 has risen, my nitrates are sitting in the normal range, currently at 8ppm
• My alk has gone up but not a huge swing. It tested 8.5dkH Sunday when I did my normal test, today (Thursday) it's at 9.5. I have a usual consumption of 0.5dkH a day so I think the uptick is because of the die off and other corals being ticked and not up-taking as much
• Strangely I have some acros and millis and they all seem completely fine (shockingly), the ticked off corals are the birds nest, stylos and pocilopora
• Fish and invertebrates are also unaffected
• Tanks is a RS 425XL, established, running 3 years

 

[Miami Reef]

Dosing in skimmer will not remove the lanthanum percipients. You need a very small micron bag (1-5 microns).

Lanthanum shouldn’t raise phosphates at all. If a little percipient gets into the testing vial it can show as higher than reality - another reason to use the micron bag.

I’m not sure why your phosphates jumped that high. I think the alk swing could be because the calcifying organisms became “disturbed” with the La3Cl dose which slowed their consumption - resulting in a rise. Lanthanum shouldn’t raise alk. If anything, it reduces it.

 

[nim6us]

@Miami Reef Thanks for the feedback!

 

[nim6us]

I'm using Hanna Phosphate ULR Checker - HI774. I've just read this post: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detecting-unfiltered-lanthanum-phosphate.828695/#post-8927500

I wonder if I'm getting a false reading. I've been dosing all this lanthanum and reality maybe my phos has bottomed out?

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I'm using Hanna Phosphate ULR Checker - HI774. I've just read this post: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detecting-unfiltered-lanthanum-phosphate.828695/#post-8927500

I wonder if I'm getting a false reading. I've been dosing all this lanthanum and reality maybe my phos has bottomed out?

Take out some tank water and run it through a few coffee filter a couple of times. You just need enough after the fact for the test. Then test again and see what you come up with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just letting some settle in a clean container should also work.

 

[nim6us]

I ran it through several coffee filters and now I'm down from 0.45 to 0.26 so @Eagle_Steve I think we're onto something! I'll try what Randy suggests, just scoop out a liter and give it an hour to settle out, then if I take my sample from the top maybe I can get an accurate reading.

However if this turns out to be the issue, what's the best way to get all the particulates out of my tank?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I ran it through several coffee filters and now I'm down from 0.45 to 0.26 so @Eagle_Steve I think we're onto something! I'll try what Randy suggests, just scoop out a liter and give it an hour to settle out, then if I take my sample from the top maybe I can get an accurate reading.

However if this turns out to be the issue, what's the best way to get all the particulates out of my tank?

You need to add the LC either directly to the skimmer or into a fine micron filter.

Adding it just to the skimmer chamber allows most of the LC to flow to the pump and end up in the tank. The precipitant will then end up in the display and be more difficult to remove.

When added to the skimmer, the precipitant can be pulled out as the LC reacts with the water.

I think the safest is to add it to a filter sock (I believe most use 10 micron) so that the particles are trapped by the sock.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I ran it through several coffee filters and now I'm down from 0.45 to 0.26 so @Eagle_Steve I think we're onto something! I'll try what Randy suggests, just scoop out a liter and give it an hour to settle out, then if I take my sample from the top maybe I can get an accurate reading.

However if this turns out to be the issue, what's the best way to get all the particulates out of my tank?

I’m not sure you do “need” to get them out. I expect most users miss collecting much of what they add, but it settles out in the system or is removed by skimming, etc.

 

[nim6us]

I guess my concern is more about getting an accurate phosphate reading. I've had dinos twice, which was the worst! So I test my nitrate/phosphate every week and have done for a year now.

 

[Miami Reef]

I guess my concern is more about getting an accurate phosphate reading. I've had dinos twice, which was the worst! So I test my nitrate/phosphate every week and have done for a year now.

I personally stopped using La3Cl. It worked great for high phosphates, but an ICP test showed that there was free Lanthanum in the water, which I personally find undesirable as I keep clams.

 

[nim6us]

Just an update for anyone who finds this thread in the future..

I think running the water through a coffee filter and seeing a drop in PO4 in the sample was a misleading result. Yes, after running the sample through a filter the result was a lower reading, but I don't think my high readings were because of lanthanum precipitate.

The reason I say that is, I had been using Brightwell Phosphat-E as my lanthanum dose, but I switched to Tropic Marin Elimi-Phos Rapid after having this issue. When I switched to Elimi-Phos I started seeing my PO4 readings lowering as expected. My PO4 is now where I'd like to see it at 0.05ppm.

My theory on what happened is I was trying to lower my high PO4 with Phostphat-E and something happened to actually spike my PO4, I don't know if this was due to a misapplication of Phostphat-E that perhaps caused some die off or if there was some other contaminate.

I REALLY wish I understood what caused my spike, but unfortunately with reefing trying to spot a cause after the fact can prove daunting.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It could have been something else as you suggest, but it also could be the lanthanum phosphate has slowly settled out.