Black ich? Or wrong diagnose? (Video)

[armandoarturo]

Hello! I‘ve dealing with something I believe is balck ich.
A couple of weeks ago I noticed my sailfin tang had black spots… some days after that I noticed my blue hipo tang also had a lot of them.

They were scratching towards the rocks a lot and asking my cleaner shrimp and my cleaner wrasse for help.

Then I noticed my two royal grammas acting weird, swiming fast like a whip, and then spending a lot of time in the surface. (Royal grammas dont seem to have dots on them).

After a lot of reading around the forum I assumed it was black ich so I ordered Prazipro.

I did a first round of prazipro last friday oct 6th and I could tell they felt a bit better the following days, but they started going scratching and going nuts again on october 11 & 12 , so I decided to do the second dose yesterday (oct 12th). I did a water change and then dosed prazipro again.

[skimmer has been on without collection cup]

Tangs have been eating well. Im feeding frozen food with selcon.
Royal grammas have been eating ocasionally , and both have been hiding all day long.

I also have 6 bangai cardinals and two clown fish and they are just fine as usual…

I want to know If im doing ok, and If ok about my diagnose. I FINALLY managed to take a video of my blue tang. Here it is:

 

[armandoarturo]

 

[MnFish1]

Unfortunately - cannot see the videos - however - assuming you've dosed Prazipro correctly - that should help / cure it. However - it would be nice to know some history - how long have you had the fish, other symptoms, etc. It doesn't make sense the the fish without spots have symptoms (unless they have something else).

Did you QT all of the fish? If not - I might suggest 1. Pictures under white light of all. 2. Put all the fish into a QT tank and treat with medications there.

 

[armandoarturo]

I dont know why it wont show up.
Here is a link to YouTube:

 

[vetteguy53081]

Does appear to be and while given the name ich is a melanin pigmentation caused by the Paravortex version which are smaller and appear as grains of black spots
These worms have a single host life cycle producing several juveniles which can last up to 30 days but rarely do. Best is to treat with Praziquantel better known as prazi pro for two 8 day intervals with a water change on day 9.
other option is formalin based medication such as quick cure or ruby Rally Pro starting with a bath for 45 minutes followed by treatment
Do note that Prazi will lower both oxygen and appetite, so an airstone is recommended for added aeration and monitor water quality during treatment with a reliable test kit

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Actually, praziquantel often fails to cure turbellarian infections - these encysted worms don’t drop off after being dosed with prazi like flukes do.

I know everyone says use prazi, but it isn’t very effective. Formalin or even FW dips will knock the numbers back and then the disease often just goes away.

Public aquariums use dylox, but I think that is too toxic to use in homes.

Jay

 

[armandoarturo]

Actually, praziquantel often fails to cure turbellarian infections - these encysted worms don’t drop off after being dosed with prazi like flukes do.

I know everyone says use prazi, but it isn’t very effective. Formalin or even FW dips will knock the numbers back and then the disease often just goes away.

Public aquariums use dylox, but I think that is too toxic to use in homes.

Jay

I worry about doing FW dip and stress the fish and get things Worse…
My blue tang still has the black dots after the second dose of prazipro.

By formalin do you mean api General cure? Will a bath of it clean the body ?
Ill be dosing a 3rd round of prazipro on friday but I want to do as much as I Can to get through this.

I just lost one of the royal grammas… I placed it on a paper towel and I could see something like blood , so Im guessing it died because of blood lose.
I was so sad / nervous /mad that I forgot to take a picture of it
The other one is still missing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I worry about doing FW dip and stress the fish and get things Worse…
My blue tang still has the black dots after the second dose of prazipro.

By formalin do you mean api General cure? Will a bath of it clean the body ?
Ill be dosing a 3rd round of prazipro on friday but I want to do as much as I Can to get through this.

I just lost one of the royal grammas… I placed it on a paper towel and I could see something like blood , so Im guessing it died because of blood lose.
I was so sad / nervous /mad that I forgot to take a picture of it
The other one is still missing.

General cure is just praziquantel and metronidazole.

Formalin would require catching the fish for a dip also.

The royal gramma didn’t have black spots did they? I’m concerned you might have two issues going on at the same time here.

Jay

 

[armandoarturo]

General cure is just praziquantel and metronidazole.

Formalin would require catching the fish for a dip also.

The royal gramma didn’t have black spots did they? I’m concerned you might have two issues going on at the same time here.

Jay

I did not see black spots in the body

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I did not see black spots in the body

I do think you have two issues going on, but I cannot tell you what killed the royal gramma, since there are not any symptoms to use to diagnose the issue.
Jay

 

[armandoarturo]

Update:
Today I made a 20-25% water change and dosed the third round of prazipro.
I think I do not see black spots on my tangs anymore, but blue tang still has some sort of cloudy eyes.
all fish very active and eating well.

I decided to add metroplex to their frozen + selcon food. Ive been doing this for 5 days now. (Im doing this not because of the turbellarians but for the strange reason the both royal grammas died).

Im convinced they both died even though I only found one of them.

Should this 3rd round of prazipro be enough? Or should I go for a 4th one just to be sure?

When am I gonna be able to turn on my UV?

I currently have a new yellow Coris wrasse and melanorus wrasse in my QT, they are there because Im affraid the prazipro could harm them.. (TBH I havent seen my cleaner wrasse struggle with the medication)… but I just rather not risk them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update:
Today I made a 20-25% water change and dosed the third round of prazipro.
I think I do not see black spots on my tangs anymore, but blue tang still has some sort of cloudy eyes.
all fish very active and eating well.

I decided to add metroplex to their frozen + selcon food. Ive been doing this for 5 days now. (Im doing this not because of the turbellarians but for the strange reason the both royal grammas died).

Im convinced they both died even though I only found one of them.

Should this 3rd round of prazipro be enough? Or should I go for a 4th one just to be sure?

When am I gonna be able to turn on my UV?

I currently have a new yellow Coris wrasse and melanorus wrasse in my QT, they are there because Im affraid the prazipro could harm them.. (TBH I havent seen my cleaner wrasse struggle with the medication)… but I just rather not risk them.

What was the timing on your first two rounds of prazipro? It should be dosed on 8 day intervals. The bottle instructions, I think says 48 hours, but unfortunately, that is incorrect.

With wrasse, they are fine with Prazipro. It's jut that Prazipro has glycol in it as a solvent, and that strips oxygen from the water. If you don't have good aeration, that can harm fish with high oxygen requirements, including wrasses. The fact that your cleaner wrasse was fine makes that point - they are one of the more delicate wrasses.

Jay

 

[armandoarturo]

What was the timing on your first two rounds of prazipro? It should be dosed on 8 day intervals. The bottle instructions, I think says 48 hours, but unfortunately, that is incorrect.

With wrasse, they are fine with Prazipro. It's jut that Prazipro has glycol in it as a solvent, and that strips oxygen from the water. If you don't have good aeration, that can harm fish with high oxygen requirements, including wrasses. The fact that your cleaner wrasse was fine makes that point - they are one of the more delicate wrasses.

Jay

Thanks a lot for all your help Jay!

The second one was on the 6th day. (I was gonna do it the 7th but I saw my blue tang scratching and desperated so I did it a day before.

The third dose was 8 days after the second one.

Good to know what you are saying about wrasses. Im gonna take them into the DT then. I do have my skimmer working without collection cup. (Has been going nuts ever since the first dose)

Should I go for a 4th one? Or will this 3 doses be enough?

When can I turn on my UV?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks a lot for all your help Jay!

The second one was on the 6th day. (I was gonna do it the 7th but I saw my blue tang scratching and desperated so I did it a day before.

The third dose was 8 days after the second one.

Good to know what you are saying about wrasses. Im gonna take them into the DT then. I do have my skimmer working without collection cup. (Has been going nuts ever since the first dose)

Should I go for a 4th one? Or will this 3 doses be enough?

When can I turn on my UV?

Tough to say about 3 or 4 doses - usually 3 is enough, but not always, no way to tell for sure.

You can turn the UV back on after the last dose has had time to work, so 36 hours after it is dosed.

Jay

 

[armandoarturo]

update:
So I decided to go for a 4th round of prazipro.
I did a 40% WC and then dosed it yesterday.

Fish were finally looking good and not scratching, but I still decided to be sure and do the 4th one.

Ill be turning on UV 36 hour after the dose.

The only sad thing is that I lost both of my royal grammars.

Thanks a lot to everyone for all your help!!

 

[armandoarturo]

So…
Its been a week since my 4th and “last dose” of prazipro. Everything was looking good.
Until today. My blue hipo tang has black spots once more.
Should I go for s higher dose???
Im getting sick of this

 

[armandoarturo]

here are couple of pictures:

Please help!!

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

Pull fish and put them through actual QT

 

[armandoarturo]

Pull fish and put them through actual QT

I need to treat my whole aquarium, the problem is in there, QT tank wont erradicate the parasite of my display tank

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I need to treat my whole aquarium, the problem is in there, QT tank wont erradicate the parasite of my display tank

As I mentioned on 10/13, prazi often fails to cure turbellarian infections. The cysts of these worms tend to come and go, so it can appear that the worms are being controlled by that medication, when they actually are not.

Tang turbellarian infections can be self-limiting, that is, they can go away on their own. Is the fish showing ANY other symptoms? If not, it isn’t showing that many spots, you might want to just let it go for a bit. Or - if you can catch the fish easily, try the 5 minute freshwater dip that I mentioned.
Jay