Biodiversity in water

[REEFRIED!]

So I recently started thinking that I want to increase the bio diversity of my tank. Which certainly can not hurt. Obviously there is a chance of introducing some bad bacteria and other things but I am thinking positive!! My idea was to purchase some bio balls and spread them around to people in my local reef club who I know have established mostly pest free successful tanks. Let them sit in these peoples systems for a few months, then take them all back and put them in my system.

I reached out to one person who I had in mind, he actually runs a small coral farm, and has a scientific background. He actually told me that the bacteria that would colonize the bio balls would be mostly denitrifying bacteria, which I already have in my system. And if I wanted to diversify I would be better suited to take some tank water from his and other people’s systems.

I guess this makes sense to me? What do you guys think? Are the other types of beneficial bacteria in reef tanks mostly free floating in the water column? Wouldn’t some of this bacteria also colonize the bio balls? I am definitely not opposed to taking some water. Would this be more likely to import bad things into my system than bio balls or live rock rubble? Thoughts?

 

[Dread Pirate Dave]

So I recently started thinking that I want to increase the bio diversity of my tank. Which certainly can not hurt. Obviously there is a chance of introducing some bad bacteria and other things but I am thinking positive!! My idea was to purchase some bio balls and spread them around to people in my local reef club who I know have established mostly pest free successful tanks. Let them sit in these peoples systems for a few months, then take them all back and put them in my system.

I reached out to one person who I had in mind, he actually runs a small coral farm, and has a scientific background. He actually told me that the bacteria that would colonize the bio balls would be mostly denitrifying bacteria, which I already have in my system. And if I wanted to diversify I would be better suited to take some tank water from his and other people’s systems.

I guess this makes sense to me? What do you guys think? Are the other types of beneficial bacteria in reef tanks mostly free floating in the water column? Wouldn’t some of this bacteria also colonize the bio balls? I am definitely not opposed to taking some water. Would this be more likely to import bad things into my system than bio balls or live rock rubble? Thoughts?

I'm not sure about swapping water between tanks but if I was looking for more diversity I would purchase some live rock rubble and add it to my sump or an observation tank and then just deal with the pests as needed.

BRS did a video on this too.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...-testing-help-us-find-the-perfect-biome-cycle

Maybe start by having your tank tested to see where you are. Then later test to see where you went.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think such efforts are generally not of any clear value, and also usually lack any clear hoped for benefit.

What are you hoping these new species (if any) will do for the tank?

That said, I’ve added actual ocean water a few times, but never noticed (or expected to notice) and changes.

 

[Hans-Werner]

So I recently started thinking that I want to increase the bio diversity of my tank. Which certainly can not hurt. Obviously there is a chance of introducing some bad bacteria and other things but I am thinking positive!! My idea was to purchase some bio balls and spread them around to people in my local reef club who I know have established mostly pest free successful tanks. Let them sit in these peoples systems for a few months, then take them all back and put them in my system.

I reached out to one person who I had in mind, he actually runs a small coral farm, and has a scientific background. He actually told me that the bacteria that would colonize the bio balls would be mostly denitrifying bacteria, which I already have in my system. And if I wanted to diversify I would be better suited to take some tank water from his and other people’s systems.

I guess this makes sense to me? What do you guys think? Are the other types of beneficial bacteria in reef tanks mostly free floating in the water column? Wouldn’t some of this bacteria also colonize the bio balls? I am definitely not opposed to taking some water. Would this be more likely to import bad things into my system than bio balls or live rock rubble? Thoughts?

I rather would take small live rock fragments or coral fragments to offer more diverse habitats for diverse bacteria. The surface of bio balls in my eyes is too smooth the get diverse bacteria.

 

[REEFRIED!]

I think such efforts are generally not of any clear value, and also usually lack any clear hoped for benefit.

What are you hoping these new species (if any) will do for the tank?

That said, I’ve added actual ocean water a few times, but never noticed (or expected to notice) and changes.

I am only hoping to possibly add in some bacteria or other microbiome organisms that my system doesn’t have already. I am not hoping they do anything specific.

When I set the tank up I ordered dry rock for my aqua scape. When I received the rock I gave three baseball sized pieces to a friend to place in his tank to help me jump start my tank/rock. Fast forward 8-12 months and I currently battling some GHA. Funny thing is that the three pieces of rock my friend had in his tank for 3 months don’t have any GHA on them. I originally thought that the bacteria/microbiome would spread from the three seeded rocks to my rocks, but maybe that doesn’t happen?

Obviously I am not going to cure/rid GHA by tossing in some seeded bio balls, or water from another persons tank, but I just figured it cannot hurt.

 

[REEFRIED!]

I rather would take small live rock fragments or coral fragments to offer more diverse habitats for diverse bacteria. The surface of bio balls in my eyes is too smooth the get diverse bacteria.

The bio balls I am speaking of are porous. Supposedly they have 500+ square feet of surface area per ball.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Just add a good bit of real ocean live rock (maricultured is fine) or use AF Life Source. Those are the only ways id ever expect to actually make the microbiome more diverse...still doubt youll notice much though

 

[Dragen Fiend]

All you really need is throw in the copepods/amphipods. Then any other biodiversity can come from new inverts.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

All you really need is throw in the copepods/amphipods. Then any other biodiversity can come from new inverts.

I think he means he wants to increase bacterial diversity to create a more stable and natural microbiome.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

buying corals from different locations will will have the same effect to introduce different bacteria’s.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think he means he wants to increase bacterial diversity to create a more stable and natural microbiome.

Which I question both whether that happens, and if it does, whether it is of actual benefit.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Which I question both whether that happens, and if it does, whether it is of actual benefit.

Ive actually wondered the same before and would frequently have discussions with @Timfish on the topic. At one point we were both reading a good bit of scientific literature on the topic. Although it still isnt a certainty that adding this or that will create a microbiome thats more biodiverse by a factor of X, as I recall, a biodiverse microbiome is beneficial, although I doubt someone would actually notice a visible difference unless there was an underlying issue specifically related to the microbiome.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ive actually wondered the same before and would frequently have discussions with @Timfish on the topic. At one point we were both reading a good bit of scientific literature on the topic. Although it still isnt a certainty that adding this or that will create a microbiome thats more biodiverse by a factor of X, as I recall, a biodiverse microbiome is beneficial, although I doubt someone would actually notice a visible difference unless there was an underlying issue specifically related to the microbiome.

My thought is introducing more bacteria is primarily useful to deal with dinos by competition.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

My thought is introducing more bacteria is primarily useful to deal with dinos by competition.

I wish I still had all the journal articles I had read through previously but they were saved on my old phone.
We do have to keep in mind that our aquariums are much different than natural reefs and therefore the same benefits from bacterial diversity might not be as important as it is for natural reefs (id assume it isnt as important personally). The roles of many bacterial strains are redundant and therefore theres no guarantee whatsoever that the bacteria introduced will vary in their role in promoting health. With that said, there is a lot of speculation that these different roles serve a variety of purposes and promote health in different ways with some being far more important than others.
Again, we really dont have a clue how much diversity in the microbiome is necessary for a reef tank to thrive so increasing diversity is sort of a shot in the dark. I dont think it would be negative though (if you dont factor in the cost and effort of achieving this goal).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wish I still had all the journal articles I had read through previously but they were saved on my old phone.
We do have to keep in mind that our aquariums are much different than natural reefs and therefore the same benefits from bacterial diversity might not be as important as it is for natural reefs (id assume it isnt as important personally). The roles of many bacterial strains are redundant and therefore theres no guarantee whatsoever that the bacteria introduced will vary in their role in promoting health. With that said, there is a lot of speculation that these different roles serve a variety of purposes and promote health in different ways with some being far more important than others.
Again, we really dont have a clue how much diversity in the microbiome is necessary for a reef tank to thrive so increasing diversity is sort of a shot in the dark. I dont think it would be negative though (if you dont factor in the cost and effort of achieving this goal).

Whether diversity is a benefit, a detriment, or just no effect in a reef tank, there’s not much evidence whether adding bacteria results in more diversity a month or two later.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Whether diversity is a benefit, a detriment, or just no effect in a reef tank, there’s not much evidence whether adding bacteria results in more diversity a month or two later.

I agree...im unaware of any credible studies that show evidence of an increase in diversity from adding bacteria to reef tanks. Likewise, I havent seen studies that cast doubt on an increase in diversity. I dont see any harm in attempting to imcrease diversity however. Honestly, I personally dont feel its worth the time, money, or effort to attempt to increase bacterial diversity in an established tank, partly because the bacteria will compete and over time result in lower diversity as certain strains become dominant (even if the goal is achieved in the short term).

 

[REEFRIED!]

All of these thoughts make sense. I figured it wouldn’t be noticeably more beneficial, although I figured it wouldn’t hurt. Let’s say I am going to try and increase diversity. Would you guys think that adding water from a different system would be a better way, than adding live rock rubble or other surface material from their tank?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

All of these thoughts make sense. I figured it wouldn’t be noticeably more beneficial, although I figured it wouldn’t hurt. Let’s say I am going to try and increase diversity. Would you guys think that adding water from a different system would be a better way, than adding live rock rubble or other surface material from their tank?

If I were going to try, Id purchase more than just rubble or add water from another tank. I dont know the size of your tank, but as I mentioned earlier bacteria compete and a small amount of rubble wouldn't do much at all in my opinion since any new bacterial strains that live on substrate wouldnt be likely to stand a chance competing with the bacteria which are already dominant on every other surface. With that in mind, wouldnt it make more sense to purchase a small amount of maricultured rock from TBS or another supplier? Then youd get both the bacteria which grow on surfaces as well as the bacteria that thrive in the water column since it arrives in water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All of these thoughts make sense. I figured it wouldn’t be noticeably more beneficial, although I figured it wouldn’t hurt. Let’s say I am going to try and increase diversity. Would you guys think that adding water from a different system would be a better way, than adding live rock rubble or other surface material from their tank?

I agree it is not likely to hurt, but is there any reason to think the bacteria added are more likely to have a positive effect than a negative one?

In any case, those two types of transfer are likely to transfer different types of bacteria, so if you can, do both. The rubble will likely move more numbers, but again, not of the same types.

 

[Timfish]

So I recently started thinking that I want to increase the bio diversity of my tank. Which certainly can not hurt. Obviously there is a chance of introducing some bad bacteria and other things but I am thinking positive!! My idea was to purchase some bio balls and spread them around to people in my local reef club who I know have established mostly pest free successful tanks. Let them sit in these peoples systems for a few months, then take them all back and put them in my system.

I reached out to one person who I had in mind, he actually runs a small coral farm, and has a scientific background. He actually told me that the bacteria that would colonize the bio balls would be mostly denitrifying bacteria, which I already have in my system. And if I wanted to diversify I would be better suited to take some tank water from his and other people’s systems.

I guess this makes sense to me? What do you guys think? Are the other types of beneficial bacteria in reef tanks mostly free floating in the water column? Wouldn’t some of this bacteria also colonize the bio balls? I am definitely not opposed to taking some water. Would this be more likely to import bad things into my system than bio balls or live rock rubble? Thoughts?

Here's some links below for you to look at. Personally I would use wild or maricultured sand, rubble and live rock and not stuff from other systems. I've used water, sand and rock from other systems but it's hit or miss, sometimes it eliminates or speeds up the nuisance algae phase when setting up a system and sometimes it doesn't have much effect where wild or maricultred live rock is pretty consistant in my experiences. Since cryptic sponges are essential for reef systems my thought is beneficial* sponges are consistantly introduced with wild and maricultured rock. Even though the corals in a system may be pretty and grow fast that doesn't translate to healthy corals or healthy microbiomes in the water and in biofilms. Depending on what an aquarist is doing the microbial stuff can be (is likely) skewed one way or another.

Your experience with algae on rocks in your system is a good example of the complexities we're dealing with. Biofilms alter the sorbtion properties of the rock they grow on and can create conditions preferential for one organism and distasteful for another. So it's easy to theorize the differences were due to different species in the biofilms but as your experience shows just adding some of the "right stuff" while beneficial may not translate to fixing a problem.

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

DOC is The Most Important Parameter For A Healthy Reef Tank: Here’s a New Method to Manage It | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

In this article, I will provide an overview of my take on the current zeitgeist of reefing and explain why the entire industry is ignoring a critical aspect of coral care. I will explain what issues…

reefbuilders.com

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)





* Depending on the organisms in a system, sponges may be part of a feedback loop that promotes algae takeover in a reef system.