Best Feeder Fish/Invert?

[WanderingAlbatross]

Good morning everyone! As I recently mentioned in a previous thread (Fill These Tanks), I've decided to go all in with this hobby. That includes having live food cultures to increase variety and stimulation for my fish.

The plan is to have a regular Phyto, brine, and mysis culture. In addition, I'd like to have one final culture of some type of feeder fish or crustacean. Something that breeds readily and is simple to care for.

I know some people are for live feeding, some against. Please don't start the ethics rant on my thread, we all have differing opinions. I want to know, from people who use live feeders, what fish do use? I've heard tell of freshwater guppies, saltwater/brackish water acclimated guppies and saltwater raised mollies predominantly. I used to raise guppies and fry for sale so I'm already familiar with the requirements there. If those are possible that would be best.

I've heard tell of guppies and mollies not having the proper nutrients for saltwater fish. If I fed them saltwater-based pellets/flakes, or even live phyto or gut loaded brine fry, would that solve the problem? Of course this will be supplemental, not a staple diet. It's meant to stimulate larger predatory fish on occasion. Would they have to be saltwater raised too or can I raise in fresh and then just drop them in? Will the difference of water type they grew in effect my saltwater fish if they ate it? I remember dosing traces of various chemical/nutrients in my FW guppy tank to manage illness, would those chemicals inadvertently pass over to my main tank? If you have a natural SW fish/invert that you think works better as a live feeder, please let me know.

I look forward to any information you can offer!

I would also love if more of you could respond to my other thread "Fill These Tanks" (Sorry I'm still new enough to this site that I'm unfamiliar with how to add a link)

Blessings all

 

[TX_REEF]

saltwater mollies are relatively easy to breed in saltwater, so that could be a good solution. and if it's just supplemental, I wouldn't worry too much about the nutrition part, but it can't hurt to gut-load them with beneficial saltwater food.

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

saltwater mollies are relatively easy to breed in saltwater, so that could be a good solution. and if it's just supplemental, I wouldn't worry too much about the nutrition part, but it can't hurt to gut-load them with beneficial saltwater food.

Thank you for the information!

I've heard so much back and forth on the topic, it's tough to get a solid answer sometimes. Do you have any recommendations for invert breeders? Something hard-shelled that I could give to triggers for their teeth? Or would those just be easier to buy frozen for the occasion?

Half of the passion for me is creating and sustaining the ecosystem, and providing stimulation for each fish, even if it's more work. Hence the emphasis on the live cultures. Is there any other easy breeding reef fish you'd suggest, that might have a higher nutritional value? Something that could be fed more often, say as a 60/40 split of 60% pellet style 40% live fish?

 

[TX_REEF]

Thank you for the information!

I've heard so much back and forth on the topic, it's tough to get a solid answer sometimes. Do you have any recommendations for invert breeders? Something hard-shelled that I could give to triggers for their teeth? Or would those just be easier to buy frozen for the occasion?

Half of the passion for me is creating and sustaining the ecosystem, and providing stimulation for each fish, even if it's more work. Hence the emphasis on the live cultures. Is there any other easy breeding reef fish you'd suggest, that might have a higher nutritional value? Something that could be fed more often, say as a 60/40 split of 60% pellet style 40% live fish?

I don’t know of any reef fish that are “easy” to breed, but clownfish would be closest to easy. They do still require special setup and attention.

For live inverts, trochus snails readily breed in home tanks. As far as shrimp and crabs, I haven’t seen any evidence of sustainable home breeding (aside from brine shrimp and other tiny shrimp), so if you want to feed live inverts, peppermint shrimp and emerald crabs are probably cheapest.

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

I don’t know of any reef fish that are “easy” to breed, but clownfish would be closest to easy. They do still require special setup and attention.

For live inverts, trochus snails readily breed in home tanks. As far as shrimp and crabs, I haven’t seen any evidence of sustainable home breeding (aside from brine shrimp and other tiny shrimp), so if you want to feed live inverts, peppermint shrimp and emerald crabs are probably cheapest.

Thanks for the feedback

The inverts are more of a "if one is stupid easy to breed I'll breed it too" kind of thing. If there isn't one larger than the already planned mysis or brine, that's fine. I was just wondering if one was a standout for its ease.

Blessings

 

[littlefoxx]

Good morning everyone! As I recently mentioned in a previous thread (Fill These Tanks), I've decided to go all in with this hobby. That includes having live food cultures to increase variety and stimulation for my fish.

The plan is to have a regular Phyto, brine, and mysis culture. In addition, I'd like to have one final culture of some type of feeder fish or crustacean. Something that breeds readily and is simple to care for.

I know some people are for live feeding, some against. Please don't start the ethics rant on my thread, we all have differing opinions. I want to know, from people who use live feeders, what fish do use? I've heard tell of freshwater guppies, saltwater/brackish water acclimated guppies and saltwater raised mollies predominantly. I used to raise guppies and fry for sale so I'm already familiar with the requirements there. If those are possible that would be best.

I've heard tell of guppies and mollies not having the proper nutrients for saltwater fish. If I fed them saltwater-based pellets/flakes, or even live phyto or gut loaded brine fry, would that solve the problem? Of course this will be supplemental, not a staple diet. It's meant to stimulate larger predatory fish on occasion. Would they have to be saltwater raised too or can I raise in fresh and then just drop them in? Will the difference of water type they grew in effect my saltwater fish if they ate it? I remember dosing traces of various chemical/nutrients in my FW guppy tank to manage illness, would those chemicals inadvertently pass over to my main tank? If you have a natural SW fish/invert that you think works better as a live feeder, please let me know.

I look forward to any information you can offer!

I would also love if more of you could respond to my other thread "Fill These Tanks" (Sorry I'm still new enough to this site that I'm unfamiliar with how to add a link)

Blessings all

What kinds of fish are you looking to feed?

 

[Spare time]

What kinds of fish are you looking to feed?

+1 on this as imo it would be way more of a hassle than using frozen food.

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

What kinds of fish are you looking to feed?

I haven't made the final decision on my predator tank, that's part of what my other thread (Fill These Tanks) was for, but there would potentially be eels, lions, triggers, and/or groupers, though I'm not sold on those yet. I'm sure I'm missing a few in there. Also, live fish would be occasionally offered to my sharks and octopus, when I am blessed enough to house one. I'm unsure if rays would bother with live fish, they seem more interested in burrowing inverts.

As for the extra hassle, yes I'm aware, both for ordering them or raising them for live food it's extra time/money. But for me, I'm willing to entertain that. If it were for a single 40g tank, I might not, but given the amount of tanks and fish I'm envisioning, It's worth it to me for the stimulation of my predatory fish. Besides, creating an ecosystem where everything relies on/interacts with everything else is half the passion for me. Seeing how things work, watching the life cycle in action. That's also why I wanted to attempt to have a male/female pair of each fish I plan to have. I've read many threads where people say that it's very risky for some territorial fish, and the main 2 ways they got around the issue was more space (ie larger tank, more hiding places for territory/breaking line of sight), and having a male/female pair. Many on other threads say not to even bother, but failed to mention the size of the tank they attempted it with, or the other fish that were already in there. I know it also is highly dependent on the fish in question, I've accepted that as well. They would be purchased as young/small as possible and introduced together. Sometimes it just doesn't work out, and I've accepted that possibility as well.

Blessings all

 

[littlefoxx]

I haven't made the final decision on my predator tank, that's part of what my other thread (Fill These Tanks) was for, but there would potentially be eels, lions, triggers, and/or groupers, though I'm not sold on those yet. I'm sure I'm missing a few in there. Also, live fish would be occasionally offered to my sharks and octopus, when I am blessed enough to house one. I'm unsure if rays would bother with live fish, they seem more interested in burrowing inverts.

As for the extra hassle, yes I'm aware, both for ordering them or raising them for live food it's extra time/money. But for me, I'm willing to entertain that. If it were for a single 40g tank, I might not, but given the amount of tanks and fish I'm envisioning, It's worth it to me for the stimulation of my predatory fish. Besides, creating an ecosystem where everything relies on/interacts with everything else is half the passion for me. Seeing how things work, watching the life cycle in action. That's also why I wanted to attempt to have a male/female pair of each fish I plan to have. I've read many threads where people say that it's very risky for some territorial fish, and the main 2 ways they got around the issue was more space (ie larger tank, more hiding places for territory/breaking line of sight), and having a male/female pair. Many on other threads say not to even bother, but failed to mention the size of the tank they attempted it with, or the other fish that were already in there. I know it also is highly dependent on the fish in question, I've accepted that as well. They would be purchased as young/small as possible and introduced together. Sometimes it just doesn't work out, and I've accepted that possibility as well.

Blessings all

Ah okay, all those you listed do eat frozen foods really well. As for male female pairs, lions I can help sex. Eels and groupers and triggers? No. Blue throat triggers are visibly different in sex. Zebra and snowflake eels are born female and change if you have one larger. Honestly with eels I wouldnt bother with trying to have pairs. I have 4 different ones and they all snuggle together all the time! Lions will fight if you mess up the genders, but you can easily keep different kinds of lions together no issue. For example 3 out of my 4 eels the other day just chilling together!

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

Ah okay, all those you listed do eat frozen foods really well. As for male female pairs, lions I can help sex. Eels and groupers and triggers? No. Blue throat triggers are visibly different in sex. Zebra and snowflake eels are born female and change if you have one larger. Honestly with eels I wouldnt bother with trying to have pairs. I have 4 different ones and they all snuggle together all the time! Lions will fight if you mess up the genders, but you can easily keep different kinds of lions together no issue. For example 3 out of my 4 eels the other day just chilling together!

Ah okay, all those you listed do eat frozen foods really well. As for male female pairs, lions I can help sex. Eels and groupers and triggers? No. Blue throat triggers are visibly different in sex. Zebra and snowflake eels are born female and change if you have one larger. Honestly with eels I wouldnt bother with trying to have pairs. I have 4 different ones and they all snuggle together all the time! Lions will fight if you mess up the genders, but you can easily keep different kinds of lions together no issue. For example 3 out of my 4 eels the other day just chilling together!

I didn't know that about the zebras and snowflakes. Do you think they could be paired/influenced if one was purposefully bought smaller than the other, much like clowns? Do they have any tankmates, or is that solely an eel den? So those guys never get territorial? No fighting? They sure do look cozy.

It would be super cool to have several types of eels together like that, but if forced to choose between them, I'd still rather have a pair, even if it's a pair of one type and a few different singles. I don't expect them to spawn, or to raise the spawn at this time, but if the mood strikes them, I want them to have the option. If they choose to just room together, that's fine, I made the attempt. They were given the option. Most species spawn when conditions are favorable, some of our fish are just easier to please. For me, if I see spawning behavior, that's a clear indication that I'm doing something right. And to me they just look so lonely solo, everyone needs a mate. Even if that mate annoys the bejesus out of them

Thank you for the feedback and awesome pic!
Blessings

 

[littlefoxx]

I didn't know that about the zebras and snowflakes. Do you think they could be paired/influenced if one was purposefully bought smaller than the other, much like clowns? Do they have any tankmates, or is that solely an eel den? So those guys never get territorial? No fighting? They sure do look cozy.

It would be super cool to have several types of eels together like that, but if forced to choose between them, I'd still rather have a pair, even if it's a pair of one type and a few different singles. I don't expect them to spawn, or to raise the spawn at this time, but if the mood strikes them, I want them to have the option. If they choose to just room together, that's fine, I made the attempt. They were given the option. Most species spawn when conditions are favorable, some of our fish are just easier to please. For me, if I see spawning behavior, that's a clear indication that I'm doing something right. And to me they just look so lonely solo, everyone needs a mate. Even if that mate annoys the bejesus out of them

Thank you for the feedback and awesome pic!
Blessings

So the eels wont spawn in the aquarium ever. Pretty much all the fish you want besides clowns wont spawn, just how it is. Ive seen snowflakes together and in groups before but dont get your hopes up for a male/female pair. Thats just really difficult as they could just stay females. My other two eels the jeweled moray and the white eye moray I have no idea what gender they actually are, they just feel male to me lol.

The only squabbling they do is over food, I have to feed my jeweled and white eye first to avoid squabbling cause they will take food from the other two.

Tank mates I have tangs, angels, maroon clowns, foxface and some other fish!

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

So the eels wont spawn in the aquarium ever. Pretty much all the fish you want besides clowns wont spawn, just how it is. Ive seen snowflakes together and in groups before but dont get your hopes up for a male/female pair. Thats just really difficult as they could just stay females. My other two eels the jeweled moray and the white eye moray I have no idea what gender they actually are, they just feel male to me lol.

The only squabbling they do is over food, I have to feed my jeweled and white eye first to avoid squabbling cause they will take food from the other two.

Tank mates I have tangs, angels, maroon clowns, foxface and some other fish!

Does that mean then that every single eel ever sold is wild caught? I was under the impression that some snowflakes were tank raised. If they would never breed in a tank environment, that's the only option, lest you have a specialized breeding tank on an industrial scale. It's remarkable that being wild caught, they could still adapt so well to tank life.

Honestly I don't expect them to spawn per-say, it just looks better to me if they have a buddy. I certainly don't mean to argue, I'm merely examining multiple sources and ideas. Before I started really getting into this hobby, I did research on vast amounts of species, not just marine, it's an insatiable urge for understanding lol. While there are absolutely differences between ocean dwelling fish and their tank living counterparts, I think it's important to understand how they behave/interact in the wild as well. Something that they do/need/have access to in the wild may be directly related to how they behave in an enclosed environment such as a tank. They might very well need something we don't know to provide for them yet as hobbyists, because it hasn't been considered yet. Their aggression and spawning habits come to mind most often, as many fish rely on oceanic clues to trigger spawning, such as a rise in tide or temperature. Some fish trigger their sex-morph based on food availability and sudden temperature fluctuations. Some even rely on the day length or phase of the moon. These things are not typically present in a tank environment, even at the professional aquarium level. If we can understand what triggers these more difficult fish, it can bring us one step closer to fully tank raised fish, which helps us, and helps their wild populations remain stable, in theory. I'm simply examining the possibilities. I care more about their overall wellbeing then anything. I just want to find what's best for my fish, as we all do.

Blessings

 

[Tamberav]

Does that mean then that every single eel ever sold is wild caught? I was under the impression that some snowflakes were tank raised. If they would never breed in a tank environment, that's the only option, lest you have a specialized breeding tank on an industrial scale. It's remarkable that being wild caught, they could still adapt so well to tank life.

Honestly I don't expect them to spawn per-say, it just looks better to me if they have a buddy. I certainly don't mean to argue, I'm merely examining multiple sources and ideas. Before I started really getting into this hobby, I did research on vast amounts of species, not just marine, it's an insatiable urge for understanding lol. While there are absolutely differences between ocean dwelling fish and their tank living counterparts, I think it's important to understand how they behave/interact in the wild as well. Something that they do/need/have access to in the wild may be directly related to how they behave in an enclosed environment such as a tank. They might very well need something we don't know to provide for them yet as hobbyists, because it hasn't been considered yet. Their aggression and spawning habits come to mind most often, as many fish rely on oceanic clues to trigger spawning, such as a rise in tide or temperature. Some fish trigger their sex-morph based on food availability and sudden temperature fluctuations. Some even rely on the day length or phase of the moon. These things are not typically present in a tank environment, even at the professional aquarium level. If we can understand what triggers these more difficult fish, it can bring us one step closer to fully tank raised fish, which helps us, and helps their wild populations remain stable, in theory. I'm simply examining the possibilities. I care more about their overall wellbeing then anything. I just want to find what's best for my fish, as we all do.

Blessings

Tank raised and Tank Bred are two different things. Tank raised means they can just collect juveniles from the ocean and raise them to size.

 

[littlefoxx]

Does that mean then that every single eel ever sold is wild caught? I was under the impression that some snowflakes were tank raised. If they would never breed in a tank environment, that's the only option, lest you have a specialized breeding tank on an industrial scale. It's remarkable that being wild caught, they could still adapt so well to tank life.

Honestly I don't expect them to spawn per-say, it just looks better to me if they have a buddy. I certainly don't mean to argue, I'm merely examining multiple sources and ideas. Before I started really getting into this hobby, I did research on vast amounts of species, not just marine, it's an insatiable urge for understanding lol. While there are absolutely differences between ocean dwelling fish and their tank living counterparts, I think it's important to understand how they behave/interact in the wild as well. Something that they do/need/have access to in the wild may be directly related to how they behave in an enclosed environment such as a tank. They might very well need something we don't know to provide for them yet as hobbyists, because it hasn't been considered yet. Their aggression and spawning habits come to mind most often, as many fish rely on oceanic clues to trigger spawning, such as a rise in tide or temperature. Some fish trigger their sex-morph based on food availability and sudden temperature fluctuations. Some even rely on the day length or phase of the moon. These things are not typically present in a tank environment, even at the professional aquarium level. If we can understand what triggers these more difficult fish, it can bring us one step closer to fully tank raised fish, which helps us, and helps their wild populations remain stable, in theory. I'm simply examining the possibilities. I care more about their overall wellbeing then anything. I just want to find what's best for my fish, as we all do.

Blessings

Tank raised means caught as babies and grow up in tank. Captive bred eels are not a thing. All the fish youre looking at besides clowns for the most part are all wild and dont breed in captivity. Very limited species are captive bred. So you wont really have any spawning behavior in any of your tanks unless its clowns or cardinals honestly. Just pick fish you like! Most of the time fish dont like having a male/female pair in their tank (with a few exceptions) and get territorial with each other and fight, which is why its not recommended to keep “pairs” of most fish.

 

[littlefoxx]

Like if youre after spawning fish/spawning behaviors saltwater fish are not a good choice because unless its the ocean 95% of them wont breed and will kill a fish of their same kind

 

[Tamberav]

I disagree

Most fish will spawn if paired, maybe not eels as those are not well understood and some travel to specific places to spawn but but my wrasses spawn, gobies spawn, angelfish will spawn, most everything spawns if you just want spawning behavior and not raising babies.

Some are trickier to pair than others as many fish don’t change sex or have any visual difference.

If you are just looking to raise feeder fish then a separate system to raise clowns but it’s a lot of work and expense. You could just go buy some live clams at the grocery store and save yourself the hassle.

 

[Tamberav]

You could also try breeding saltwater shrimp Palaemonetes vulgaris

Or buy the clams

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

I disagree

Most fish will spawn if paired, maybe not eels as those are not well understood and some travel to specific places to spawn but but my wrasses spawn, gobies spawn, angelfish will spawn, most everything spawns if you just want spawning behavior and not raising babies.

Some are trickier to pair than others as many fish don’t change sex or have any visual difference.

Thank you for your insight. I greatly appreciate all views on the subject.

For someone to say it's possible, they have to have seen it in their own/their friend's tank before. While someone who has never seen it may be inclined to think otherwise. This is the point of these questions. When some say 'it worked for me' and others say 'it's never worked IME', that opens the door for debate, especially in such a dynamic hobby. What were the differences between setups? Was one person just really lucky, or unlucky? What did one do differently than the other? These questions allow me to see all the moving parts and make theories about the cause and effect, especially when applying knowledge about their wild counterparts. Exquisite brain food for sure. Thank you all for the wonderful conversation!

Blessings

 

[WanderingAlbatross]

You could also try breeding saltwater shrimp Palaemonetes vulgaris

Or buy the clams

That's certainly an option as well, I was on the fence about breeding something 'crunchy' for triggers or just buying it as needed. I haven't decided if triggers will be a now or a later thing. I have a tentative stocking list on one of my other threads (Fill These Tanks). That might offer some insight as to some of the fish I'm trying to feed/pair. Full information is over there, your insight would be appreciated as well

Blessings

 

[Tamberav]

Thank you for your insight. I greatly appreciate all views on the subject.

For someone to say it's possible, they have to have seen it in their own/their friend's tank before. While someone who has never seen it may be inclined to think otherwise. This is the point of these questions. When some say 'it worked for me' and others say 'it's never worked IME', that opens the door for debate, especially in such a dynamic hobby. What were the differences between setups? Was one person just really lucky, or unlucky? What did one do differently than the other? These questions allow me to see all the moving parts and make theories about the cause and effect, especially when applying knowledge about their wild counterparts. Exquisite brain food for sure. Thank you all for the wonderful conversation!

Blessings

Besides having a male and female fish, the difference is quality food and lots of it. Not this… I feed pellets and a half a cube of blah because nutrients…

Fish won’t be thinking about babies without an abundance of quality food and stored fat reserves.