Banggai Cardinal

[Fishy Guy]

I added a Banggai Cardinal to my tank 25g tank 6 days ago; it was purchased from my LFS and had been at the store for a couple of weeks. My tank has only been running for about 4-5 weeks.

Since adding to the tank it has acted normal; bonded very quick with my clown pair and stays near their corner of the tank. I feed mostly frozen, mysis/spirulina and brine, and he's been eating everyday. I noticed earlier today that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank; when I got closer to look he swam up into the middle of the tank but just wasn't acting normal. He wasn't breathing fast but was repeatedly opening and closing his mouth.

Came back to check on him about an hour later and he was lying on his side on the bottom of the tank. He is still breathing and will sporadically work to right himself and swim but it's almost like he's drunk and starts just randomly drifting until he lays on the bottom again. I've had freshwater fish with swim bladder issues exhibit a similar swimming pattern before.

Ammonia is 0 per API test kit and Seachem ammonia badge. I haven't had the chance to check any other parameters yet. Nitrates were 18.2 when I last checked on Sunday before a 25% water change. All other fish (clown pair and tailspot blenny) and a cleaner shrimp are all acting completely normal. I've just moved the cardinal to a small hospital tank but as I'm new to the saltwater side of the hobby unsure what next steps should be. Thanks!

 

[Fishy Guy]

A couple of pictures. There’s no injuries or any obvious signs of disease.

He’s now alternating between laying on his side and being inverted on the bottom of the hospital tank. He’s breathing but it seems more labored. I’m starting to feel like this is a losing battle and euthanasia would be the most humane option.

Apologies for the poor pictures.

 

[Fishy Guy]

Unfortunately he died already. It all happened so quickly... Even up to about noon today he seemed fine. It was around 2:30 when I first noticed him sitting on the bottom and not acting normal.

Found a post from @Jay Hemdal talking about Banggai Cardinal Iridovirus. I'm actually hoping this is what it was and there's nothing that could potentially effect other livestock. Again, all other fish, shrimp/inverts, and coral seem completely fine.

Anything I should do at this point other than keep an eye on the tank?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Unfortunately he died already. It all happened so quickly... Even up to about noon today he seemed fine. It was around 2:30 when I first noticed him sitting on the bottom and not acting normal.

Found a post from @Jay Hemdal talking about Banggai Cardinal Iridovirus. I'm actually hoping this is what it was and there's nothing that could potentially effect other livestock. Again, all other fish, shrimp/inverts, and coral seem completely fine.

Anything I should do at this point other than keep an eye on the tank?

Was this a newly acquired, wild caught fish? If so, the virus is very likely. It is not contagious to most other species - as I recollect, batfish also get this virus, but most other aquarium fish do not.

Jay

 

[Fishy Guy]

Was this a newly acquired, wild caught fish? If so, the virus is very likely. It is not contagious to most other species - as I recollect, batfish also get this virus, but most other aquarium fish do not.

Jay

Thanks. Yes, newly acquired 6 days ago. He had been at my LFS for about 2 weeks. I'm unsure of his origin but would imagine it was wild caught though he was fairly small.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Agree on the virus. Like the blonde naso tangs, they appear table at the LFS and after stress of netting seems to gradually weaken.
How did you acclimate it to tank and for how long?

 

[Fishy Guy]

Agree on the virus. Like the blonde naso tangs, they appear table at the LFS and after stress of netting seems to gradually weaken.
How did you acclimate it to tank and for how long?

Did a drip acclimation over about an hour. SG of 1.024 to 1.026.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Did a drip acclimation over about an hour. SG of 1.024 to 1.026.

I dont think its an acclimation issue but often failure to float bag and match temperature as well as equalize salinity will lower the pH of the water in the bag, which in turn, makes residual ammonia toxic to the fish

 

[Fishy Guy]

I dont think its an acclimation issue but often failure to float bag and match temperature as well as equalize salinity will lower the pH of the water in the bag, which in turn, makes residual ammonia toxic to the fish

Wouldn’t something acclimation related show up within a day or so? It’s a new fish but it’s been 6 days.

 

[R3QUIEM]

I dont think its an acclimation issue but often failure to float bag and match temperature as well as equalize salinity will lower the pH of the water in the bag, which in turn, makes residual ammonia toxic to the fish

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be avoided by using Prime or something similar right after opening the bag to neutralise the ammonia while still allowing for a slow acclimation process.

However, given that he picked up Cardinal at the local LFS unless he was travelling a great length of time, I doubt enough ammonia could build up to the point it becomes toxic during the acclimation process.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be avoided by using Prime or something similar right after opening the bag to neutralise the ammonia while still allowing for a slow acclimation process.

However, given that he picked up Cardinal at the local LFS unless he was travelling a great length of time, I doubt enough ammonia could build up to the point it becomes toxic during the acclimation process.

As mentioned, i dont think its an acclimation issue but rather a chronic issue with Bangaii in general. Prime is not what persons think as is merely a water conditioner and does not remove ammonia nor does what bottle claims. Best product is amquel for water
Most effective is to prepare a bucket and empty contents and start adding tank water to it matching salinity and even Ph at the end before transfer to display tank

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be avoided by using Prime or something similar right after opening the bag to neutralise the ammonia while still allowing for a slow acclimation process.

By all accounts I can find, no, Prime and other conditioners will not actually detoxify ammonia (Randy Holmes-Farley has written about this a few times on the forum now, and a few others have done some testing on the topic too):

Like the claims about Prine, I am not convinced it does anything useful.

I’d love to know if it does anything useful. Don’t be fooled into assuming all hobby products do what they claim. Some some do not.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/ Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Fishy Guy]

By all accounts I can find, no, Prime and other conditioners will not actually detoxify ammonia (Randy Holmes-Farley has written about this a few times on the forum now, and a few others have done some testing on the topic too):

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/ Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial...

www.reef2reef.com

My understanding is that Prime "detoxifies" ammonia by converting it to ammonium which is much less harmful giving system time to process it. I haven't read through the attached links yet but don't most test kits measure total ammonia which would make it difficult to analyze?

Coming from the fresh side I've used Prime extensively, mostly for de-chlorinating properties, and while I've not conducted any studies I've got a lot of anecdotal evidence of it being beneficial in an emergency. Very interesting topic.

I've not used Prime for my saltwater tank and don't really see a need to though I guess if I had an ammonia emergency I would probably reach for it in combination with water changes.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I lost 2 new cardinals in a similar fashion, there seems to be a bad supply as of recent. The viral issue seems most likely as mentioned.

 

[MnFish1]

Unfortunately he died already. It all happened so quickly... Even up to about noon today he seemed fine. It was around 2:30 when I first noticed him sitting on the bottom and not acting normal.

Found a post from @Jay Hemdal talking about Banggai Cardinal Iridovirus. I'm actually hoping this is what it was and there's nothing that could potentially effect other livestock. Again, all other fish, shrimp/inverts, and coral seem completely fine.

Anything I should do at this point other than keep an eye on the tank?

I would keep an eye on your tank - especially if you didn't Quarantine the fish. It could be the virus - but - I suppose it could also be velvet or some other issue. It's good that the rest of the fish are doing well. If your invertebrates are doing well it's not as likely to be something chemical. Were there any issues with acclimation?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

My understanding is that Prime "detoxifies" ammonia by converting it to ammonium which is much less harmful giving system time to process it. I haven't read through the attached links yet but don't most test kits measure total ammonia which would make it difficult to analyze?

The links talk about that (posts 9, 13, and 14 in the second thread are particularly good); and yes, most test kits - including the one recommended by Seachem - can't read any difference between water with prime and water without (post 14 discusses this too).

As mentioned in the threads, probably the best way to tell for sure would be to run a controlled ammonia toxicity test using live specimens, but that runs into some ethical concerns, and to my knowledge hasn't been attempted yet (someone on the Humblefish forums technically ran a semi-serious test, but the shrimp were fine in all three conditions, so it's pretty safe to say they didn't add enough ammonia to begin with for a toxicity test).

 

[Fishy Guy]

I would keep an eye on your tank - especially if you didn't Quarantine the fish. It could be the virus - but - I suppose it could also be velvet or some other issue. It's good that the rest of the fish are doing well. If your invertebrates are doing well it's not as likely to be something chemical. Were there any issues with acclimation?

I will definitely be keeping a close eye on things. There were no issues with acclimation and nothing abnormal until yesterday afternoon when he went from seemingly fine to dead in just a few hours. Rest of the tank is still doing fine including inverts. My cleaner shrimp is as active as ever and molted yesterday.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wouldn’t something acclimation related show up within a day or so? It’s a new fish but it’s been 6 days.

Acclimation issues would be present from day one. If a fish does well at first but then develops issues, it was NOT from acclimation problems.

Jay

 

[rmorris_14]

A couple of pictures. There’s no injuries or any obvious signs of disease.

He’s now alternating between laying on his side and being inverted on the bottom of the hospital tank. He’s breathing but it seems more labored. I’m starting to feel like this is a losing battle and euthanasia would be the most humane option.

Apologies for the poor pictures.

I know you said it was eating but it does look really thin.

 

[Fishy Guy]

I know you said it was eating but it does look really thin.

Good to know. He was the smallest of the bunch still at the LFS but he didn't look proportionally skinnier than any of the rest of them. Could've definitely played a part though.