Bacteria and probiotics?

[Formulator]

I recently read an article in Reef Hobbyist Magazine about the benefits of bacteria supplements for coral nutrition and coincidentally was reminded in a few threads on here of the benefits of carbon dosing for the same purposes (not just for nitrate export).

It seems the market has exploded with bottled bacteria/probiotic products over the last few years and I’m wondering if there are benefits to using these products over just dosing carbon (vodka/vinegar) and just letting nature inoculate whatever opportunistic bacteria species are present.

What are folks’ experience and results with the various probiotic products? Any recommendations?

 

[Dan_P]

I recently read an article in Reef Hobbyist Magazine about the benefits of bacteria supplements for coral nutrition and coincidentally was reminded in a few threads on here of the benefits of carbon dosing for the same purposes (not just for nitrate export).

It seems the market has exploded with bottled bacteria/probiotic products over the last few years and I’m wondering if there are benefits to using these products over just dosing carbon (vodka/vinegar) and just letting nature inoculate whatever opportunistic bacteria species are present.

What are folks’ experience and results with the various probiotic products? Any recommendations?

If the author of the article was involved in the sale of bottled bacteria or did not provide data from controlled experiments, save your money.

 

[ReefHunter006]

Negative.

I want it to work but every time I dose carbon I spend months watching something die and colors fade for tenuis.

I assume this is due to the SCTLD in my tank.

I wish I could figure out a probiotic to try or some kind of competing bacteria i could grow and just try that.

 

[Formulator]

If the author of the article was involved in the sale of bottled bacteria or did not provide data from controlled experiments, save your money.

Ya I wasn’t going to run out and buy a specific product. Just interested in discussing them in general and if anyone is using them or has seen any benefits. I did vinegar dosing for several years with success but it was almost too effective at nitrate export and I couldn’t keep up with it. I started the carbon dosing as a nutrient export strategy, but am now interested in it as a nutrient source for corals which I hadn’t considered in the past. Corals eat bacteria.

 

[KrisReef]

Ya I wasn’t going to run out and buy a specific product. Just interested in discussing them in general and if anyone is using them or has seen any benefits. I did vinegar dosing for several years with success but it was almost too effective at nitrate export and I couldn’t keep up with it. I started the carbon dosing as a nutrient export strategy, but am now interested in it as a nutrient source for corals which I hadn’t considered in the past. Corals eat bacteria.

I think this is an interesting thing to discuss, the idea:
"I did vinegar dosing for several years with success but it was almost too effective at nitrate export"

I have had tanks that have "chewed up"(?) nitrate so that it always measured very low, (<5ppm) but I can't believe it was due to "nitrate export" that removed the nitrate from the tank via skimmer. The term (nitrate exort) is important, and perhaps descriptively accurate in some sense as far as our test kit results show, but the question for me is it nitrate export or reallocation, or recycling of nitrogen though biological pathways that we see happening in tanks, Carbon dosing or not that reduces the nitrates we test for?

That tank always required removal of phosphorus (GFO, or similar) with the nitrates reading zero. If I dosed ammonium nitrate colors exploded over night and phosphorus was kept at bay, or lowered. I just have not been willing to keep dosing nutrients, trying to balance them out with additions of stuff to keep them in the range I want, but I keep thinking maybe I should?

I think I have been hoping to find a more natural sweet spot, if possible.

 

[Formulator]

My understanding is that there are several different enzyme catalyzed reactions used by various species of denitrifying bacteria. Most of these result in the production of nitrogen gas (N2), which I assume escapes into the air surrounding our tanks, so in that way wouldn’t it be true export?

An interesting alternate pathway for denitrification is the conversion of nitrate back to nitrite. I wonder if one could figure out an appropriate ratio of bacteria utilizing the each of the pathways (N2 and NO2), perhaps you could have a system where there is constant cycling of nitrite to nitrate, only exporting enough nitrogen gas to keep nitrate in the sweet spot?

 

[legionofdoon]

I was dosing commercial nopox awhile ago and my nitrites went through the roof. It took a ton of Internet searching but apparently that is a thing where bacteria will convert nitrate back to nitrite, redsea apparently knows about it and I've seen on the net where they've acknowledged it. It's been awhile so I don't remember where I saw it.

 

[Formulator]

I was dosing commercial nopox awhile ago and my nitrites went through the roof. It took a ton of Internet searching but apparently that is a thing where bacteria will convert nitrate back to nitrite, redsea apparently knows about it and I've seen on the net where they've acknowledged it. It's been awhile so I don't remember where I saw it.

That’s exactly what I was describing in the above post and it is exciting to hear that you observed it actually happening in a reef tank! We know these type of bacteria exist and if we could somehow get the cultures of both types of denitrifying bacteria - (1. Bacteria that convert nitrate into nitrite and 2. Bacteria that convert nitrate into nitrogen gas) then hypothetically we could dial into an equilibrium that would maintain nitrate at the concentration we want, rather than the ultra low nutrient state that carbon dosing often brings.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, one of the significant advantages of carbon dosing is the feeding of filter feeders with the bacteria. In my tank, sponges, for example, thrived better than before carbon dosing, and I attribute that largely to them getting bacteria, but I also cannot rule out them directly consuming the acetate I dosed via vinegar.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was dosing commercial nopox awhile ago and my nitrites went through the roof. It took a ton of Internet searching but apparently that is a thing where bacteria will convert nitrate back to nitrite, redsea apparently knows about it and I've seen on the net where they've acknowledged it. It's been awhile so I don't remember where I saw it.

What does through the roof mean in value?

 

[Ghostbuster]

I’ve had the same results as @KrisReef & @ReefHunter006 . My Nitrates went to 0.00 ppm over 2-3 months time on 2 established aquariums. Phosphate increased to 0.83 to 0.89 in both tanks as well. I wasn’t measuring the nutrient numbers until things started going downhill. Was using Tropic Marin NP-Bacto-Balance, which clearly states “Nutrient concentrate to reduce nitrates & phosphates”. It does not reduce phosphates whatsoever in my experience.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve had the same results as @Chris Reef . My Nitrates went to 0.00 ppm over 2-3 months time on 2 established aquariums. Phosphate increased to 0.83 to 0.89 in both tanks as well. I wasn’t measuring the nutrient numbers until things started going downhill. Was using Tropic Marin NP-Bacto-Balance, which clearly states “Nutrient concentrate to reduce nitrates & phosphates”. It does not reduce phosphates whatsoever in my experience.

While I’m not defending use of that product since I generally do not recommend products with unknown ingredients, I’ll make some comments relating to your conclusion:

1. If you bottom out N, you often cannot use biological means to lower P since the organisms involved need N to thrive.

2. You do not know what would have happened to P over those 2-3 months without using that product.

 

[Ghostbuster]

While I’m not defending use of that product since I generally do not recommend products with unknown ingredients, I’ll make some comments relating to your conclusion:

1. If you bottom out N, you often cannot use biological means to lower P since the organisms involved need N to thrive.

2. You do not know what would have happened to P over those 2-3 months without using that product.

I agree with your assessment. When Nitrate bottomed out, the coral stopped using Phosphate, thus increasing the amount of available phosphate in my two reef aquariums.

 

[Ghostbuster]

The reason I switched over to carbon dosing was a particular reef keeper, with seemingly amazing acro growth results, “within a year’s time,” stated he used this method and didn’t have a need to test his water parameters hardly ever… He stated he didn’t ever use phosphate removal media/chemicals, or ever use Nitrate additions either. So, I was emulating his practices as he stated publicly, and found them extremely detrimental to my reef systems.