Are there really Indo or Aussie Harlequin tusks?

[jasonrusso]

When a Harlequin Tusk is a juvenile, you cannot tell indo vs aussie. Do you think it is the care of the fish when it is growing that determines coloration, or is it actually pre-disposed when born. If it's Indo or Aussie (no other color morph), wouldn't they be a different species?

 

[nuxx]

Eric Cohen would be better to answer this than me, but I believe there is a difference.

 

[Rtaylor]

I’ve heard Aussies tend to be larger and healthier, and that indos that are healthy and reach a larger size will look the same as an Aussie. But, I don’t have any experience personally.

 

[jasonrusso]

I’ve heard Aussies tend to be larger and healthier, and that indos that are healthy and reach a larger size will look the same as an Aussie. But, I don’t have any experience personally.

This is kind of my point. If I buy a juvenile and raise it right, does it matter?

 

[i cant think]

When a Harlequin Tusk is a juvenile, you cannot tell indo vs aussie. Do you think it is the care of the fish when it is growing that determines coloration, or is it actually pre-disposed when born. If it's Indo or Aussie (no other color morph), wouldn't they be a different species?

There are minor differences yes, it’s like with the Regal Angelfish, all juveniles look identical but as they age they show differences.
A mature Aussie Harlequin Tusk will have a bright pink line towards the back of their caudal fin and also show a much brighter blue tusk.
Neither of these photos are mine however, here’s an Indonesian Harlequin (bottom) against and Australian (top).

 

[jasonrusso]

There are minor differences yes, it’s like with the Regal Angelfish, all juveniles look identical but as they age they show differences.
A mature Aussie Harlequin Tusk will have a bright pink line towards the back of their caudal fin and also show a much brighter blue tusk.
Neither of these photos are mine however, here’s an Indonesian Harlequin (bottom) against and Australian (top).
View attachment 2970340
View attachment 2970341

Yes, my question is do you think that they are genetically different from birth, or it was the quality of care when growing or the way they were harvested.

 

[i cant think]

Yes, my question is do you think that they are genetically different from birth, or it was the quality of care when growing or the way they were harvested.

Genetically, it’s likely there are minor differences however to be under the same species, they will likely have the same base genetics. It’s like the Pygoplites genus. It was questionable if they were even different species until science dove further into their genetics and looked closer just to discover minor ‘defects’ in each variant and giving the two a subspecies so now they’re known as P. d. flavescens and P. d. diacanthus.

I believe the Harlequin Tusk will be a similar story in which science just needs to look a bit deeper and there is likely going to be differences in the genes.

 

[OrionN]

I keep several Australian and Indo-Pacific Tusk over the years. Sometime back I really do research to see if I can reliably ID each sub-species. It is likely, more likely than not IMO, that they will be reclassified as different species in the future.
After looking at fish and pictures of fish that are reliably ID as IndoPacific or Australian, I came up with these differences, that is not depends on shades red on the tail or intensity of color as these can really changes with health of the fish.
1. The shape of the fish is different. Indo-Pacific are wider, height to lenght ratio is higher in Indo-Pacific than Australian.
2. Width of the orange band especial bands 5,6,7 and 8 are thinner in Australina Tusk in comparison to Indo-Pacific Tusks. These changes, width of the bands exaggerated with age.
3. Facial marking, there are a lot more black on the face of the Indo-Pacific Tusks in comparison to the Australian Tusk, especially the second bar through the eyes, and the third bar on the gill.

There are a variety of minor color variations, but these cannot be use reliably since they depends on the health of the fish and their mood. The three characteristics above are independent of health and mood of the fish.
Live Aquaria are masters at taken picture of the animal to show their best, and almost always correctly ID their fish, at least until the latest owner. I am not saying that the current owner do not correctly ID their fish. I just don't have experience with the current ownership of Live Aquaria.
I that was what I used to show the differences that I identify when I do search on this beautiful fish.
Because these differences are more than just minor coloration, I am fairly certain that if any scientist study this species, will find that they are different enough that it is highly unlikely that they interbreed, and should qualify as separate species.
Australian Tusk facial marking.

Indo-Pacific Tusk facial marking

2 Indo-Pacific Tusks

2 Australian Tusks

 

[OrionN]

There are minor differences yes, it’s like with the Regal Angelfish, all juveniles look identical but as they age they show differences.
A mature Aussie Harlequin Tusk will have a bright pink line towards the back of their caudal fin and also show a much brighter blue tusk.
Neither of these photos are mine however, here’s an Indonesian Harlequin (bottom) against and Australian (top).
View attachment 2970340
View attachment 2970341

I disagree here. I think both of these are young Australian Tusks with #1 older and larger than #2. The second tusk is youger and smaller because the eye appears larger with respect to the head as compare to tusk #1 and tusk #2 has not developed blue tusks yet while tusk #1 clearly has blue tusks. That is why his tail is not bluer

 

[jasonrusso]

I keep several Australian and Indo-Pacific Tusk over the years. Sometime back I really do research to see if I can reliably ID each sub-species. It is likely, more likely than not IMO, that they will be reclassified as different species in the future.
After looking at fish and pictures of fish that are reliably ID as IndoPacific or Australian, I came up with these differences, that is not depends on shades red on the tail or intensity of color as these can really changes with health of the fish.
1. The shape of the fish is different. Indo-Pacific are wider, height to lenght ratio is higher in Indo-Pacific than Australian.
2. Width of the orange band in Indo-Pacific from the orange band 5,6,7 and 8 are thinner in Australina Tusk in comparison to Indo-Pacific Tusks. These changes, width of the bands exaggerated with age.
3. Facial marking, there are a lot more black on the face of the Indo-Pacific Tusks in comparison to the Australian Tusk, especially the second bar through the eyes, and the third bar on the gill.

There are a variety of minor color variations, but these cannot be use reliably since they depends on the health of the fish and their mood. The three characteristics above are independent of health and mood of the fish.
Live Aquaria are masters at taken picture of the animal to show their best, and almost always correctly ID their fish, at least until the latest owner. I am not saying that the current owner do not correctly ID their fish. I just don't have experience with the current ownership of Live Aquaria.
I that was what I used to show the differences that I identify when I do search on this beautiful fish.
Because these differences are more than just minor coloration, I am fairly certain that if any scientist study this species, will find that they are different enough that it is highly unlikely that they interbreed, and should qualify as separate species.
Australian Tusk facial marking.
View attachment 2996246

Indo-Pacific Tusk facial marking
View attachment 2996247

2 Indo-Pacific Tusks
View attachment 2996234View attachment 2996235

2 Australian Tusks
View attachment 2996236View attachment 2996237

So you are saying that they are different, but similar species. I can get on board with that. At first I thought it was BS and it was a coloration thing. The more I research it, like you said they are different fish. Different shape etc

 

[jasonrusso]

I keep several Australian and Indo-Pacific Tusk over the years. Sometime back I really do research to see if I can reliably ID each sub-species. It is likely, more likely than not IMO, that they will be reclassified as different species in the future.
After looking at fish and pictures of fish that are reliably ID as IndoPacific or Australian, I came up with these differences, that is not depends on shades red on the tail or intensity of color as these can really changes with health of the fish.
1. The shape of the fish is different. Indo-Pacific are wider, height to lenght ratio is higher in Indo-Pacific than Australian.
2. Width of the orange band in Indo-Pacific from the orange band 5,6,7 and 8 are thinner in Australina Tusk in comparison to Indo-Pacific Tusks. These changes, width of the bands exaggerated with age.
3. Facial marking, there are a lot more black on the face of the Indo-Pacific Tusks in comparison to the Australian Tusk, especially the second bar through the eyes, and the third bar on the gill.

There are a variety of minor color variations, but these cannot be use reliably since they depends on the health of the fish and their mood. The three characteristics above are independent of health and mood of the fish.
Live Aquaria are masters at taken picture of the animal to show their best, and almost always correctly ID their fish, at least until the latest owner. I am not saying that the current owner do not correctly ID their fish. I just don't have experience with the current ownership of Live Aquaria.
I that was what I used to show the differences that I identify when I do search on this beautiful fish.
Because these differences are more than just minor coloration, I am fairly certain that if any scientist study this species, will find that they are different enough that it is highly unlikely that they interbreed, and should qualify as separate species.
Australian Tusk facial marking.
View attachment 2996246

Indo-Pacific Tusk facial marking
View attachment 2996247

2 Indo-Pacific Tusks
View attachment 2996234View attachment 2996235

2 Australian Tusks
View attachment 2996236View attachment 2996237

Either way, they are both beautiful entertaining fish.

 

[OrionN]

BTW. If you bring up the picture. The name of there the file give information on the fish including the fish size and if it came from Indo-Pacific or Australia . The very first picture, the head was actually my fish I took in 2016. Australian Tusk. The rest of the pictures were LA listing pictures

 

[Saltees]

I just bought one of these 1.5-2” fellas, I was told it’s Captive Bred Aussie HT. It’s in my QT, very feisty pellet eater…a very good start I would say.

 

[jasonrusso]

I just bought one of these 1.5-2” fellas, I was told it’s Captive Bred Aussie HT. It’s in my QT, very feisty pellet eater…a very good start I would say.

View attachment 3126576

Biota?

I got one from them too. It was doing GREAT, then one day it didn't come out. I think one of my other fish got to it.

 

[albano]

I just bought one of these 1.5-2” fellas, I was told it’s Captive Bred Aussie HT. It’s in my QT, very feisty pellet eater…a very good start I would say.

View attachment 3126576

Australia is below the equator, so the upside down one is probably Aussey!

 

[Saltees]

Australia is below the equator, so the upside down one is probably Aussey!

I actually got the “Aussie” one!

 

[Saltees]

Biota?

I got one from them too. It was doing GREAT, then one day it didn't come out. I think one of my other fish got to it.

I always think they can hold their position.

 

[Saltees]

Biota?

I got one from them too. It was doing GREAT, then one day it didn't come out. I think one of my other fish got to it.

I always think they can hold their position.

 

[jasonrusso]

I always think they can hold their position.

This was was very small. I believe someone got him while he was sleeping.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I never really focused on differences especially buying adults anyway and had an indo which satisfied my ownership of a Harlequin however having the Australian version has opened my eyes to the striking coloration versus the indo version.