Anyone With Experience Home Growing PNS Probio (Rhodopseudomonas palustris)

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hey does anyone here have any experience with culturing Rhodopseudomonas palustris (the bacteria present in PNS Probio? Here in Thailand we don't have a supplier so I'd have to have a bottled shipped here which would be pretty expensive to say the least. The only way to make it worth the money would be if I were able to keep a culture going. I know they sell culture kits in boxes but i really don't think i should need 2.5 gallons of it to get a culture going. I also had a store owner ask me if I could experiment with it for him for feeding SPS corals as a side note. How difficult is it to culture? I know contamination risks are high when culturing microorganisms. Thanks guys!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hey does anyone here have any experience with culturing Rhodopseudomonas palustris (the bacteria present in PNS Probio? Here in Thailand we don't have a supplier so I'd have to have a bottled shipped here which would be pretty expensive to say the least. The only way to make it worth the money would be if I were able to keep a culture going. I know they sell culture kits in boxes but i really don't think i should need 2.5 gallons of it to get a culture going. I also had a store owner ask me if I could experiment with it for him for feeding SPS corals as a side note. How difficult is it to culture? I know contamination risks are high when culturing microorganisms. Thanks guys!

How about India? https://digitechaquariums.com/product/pns-substrate-sauce/

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

How about India? https://digitechaquariums.com/product/pns-substrate-sauce/

Unfortunately they only ship to India...i tried the Singapore distributor too but they literally want like $130 for shipping to Thailand for some reason...

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

How about India? https://digitechaquariums.com/product/pns-substrate-sauce/

I plan on getting some regardless... shipping from America is much cheaper and i can have my family mail it to me...would you expect the temperature in the plane during shipment to kill the bacteria though? Also, i read that PNS Probio is great for feeding corals, do you have any literature i can read regarding this?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

So long as the bottles do not freeze solid, temperature (including very high temps) will not affect the viability of this product. Also, it has a shelf life of at least eight months (probably much longer), so no need to expedite shipping.

There are many examples from the scientific literature (much of which is available online) demonstrating that corals consume rhizobial bacteria generally and PNSB such as Rhodopseudomonas specifically. Similarly, there are many examples to be found where we observe corals taking up these bacteria as endosymbionts (hence our designation as a probiotic). Note that we consider all diazotroph-derived nitrogen (DDN) as a contribution to a coral's diet--that is, the nitrogen these bacteria fix, in addition to that obtained directly through eating the bacteria themselves.

Here's one such study of Pacific corals, and another of Atlantic corals. For more, just google terms such as Rhodopseudomonas+coral+holobiont. Also, refer to "Meet the Diazotrophs: The Underappreciated Role of Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria in the Secret Life of Corals," CORAL Magazine vol. 18, no. 4 (July/August, 2021).

I hope that helps!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

So long as the bottles do not freeze solid, temperature (including very high temps) will not affect the viability of this product. Also, it has a shelf life of at least eight months (probably much longer), so no need to expedite shipping.

There are many examples from the scientific literature (much of which is available online) demonstrating that corals consume rhizobial bacteria generally and PNSB such as Rhodopseudomonas specifically. Similarly, there are many examples to be found where we observe corals taking up these bacteria as endosymbionts (hence our designation as a probiotic). Note that we consider all diazotroph-derived nitrogen (DDN) as a contribution to a coral's diet--that is, the nitrogen these bacteria fix, in addition to that obtained directly through eating the bacteria themselves.

Here's one such study of Pacific corals, and another of Atlantic corals. For more, just google terms such as Rhodopseudomonas+coral+holobiont. Also, refer to "Meet the Diazotrophs: The Underappreciated Role of Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria in the Secret Life of Corals," CORAL Magazine vol. 18, no. 4 (July/August, 2021).

I hope that helps!

Thanks! Like i said, I definitely plan to order some regardless of the shipping cost (America is actually the cheapest option despite the distance ironically). So if i were looking to culture one of your 3 primary products with the goal of feeding SPS corals for health/growth as well as reducing detritus buildup and reducing phosphate and nitrate levels, PNS Probio would be the best option, right?

 

[MnFish1]

Question - Why?

If 99.999% of reefers do not use it - why do you want to?

 

[Dan_P]

Hey does anyone here have any experience with culturing Rhodopseudomonas palustris (the bacteria present in PNS Probio? Here in Thailand we don't have a supplier so I'd have to have a bottled shipped here which would be pretty expensive to say the least. The only way to make it worth the money would be if I were able to keep a culture going. I know they sell culture kits in boxes but i really don't think i should need 2.5 gallons of it to get a culture going. I also had a store owner ask me if I could experiment with it for him for feeding SPS corals as a side note. How difficult is it to culture? I know contamination risks are high when culturing microorganisms. Thanks guys!

Is there something special about this species of bacteria? Have you cultured a single species of bacteria?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Question - Why?

If 99.999% of reefers do not use it - why do you want to?

Because there's always room for improvement and this seems to be a product backed by much scientific literature. Unless their claims are completely bogus and the people who do use it and report great results are really just experiencing the placebo effect it seems like a great natural way to feed your corals, reduce detritus buildup, and control nitrate and phosphate. I don't think any product is a miracle cure for anything but it does seem like a beneficial product to at least try given what I've heard about it. I'm primarily interested in its effects pertaining to the feeding of corals since I'm involved in coral reef restoration efforts as well. If a species of bacterioplankton could actually enhance coral growth/health, that would be a great alternative to other forms of supplemental foods to serve the same purpose.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Is there something special about this species of bacteria? Have you cultured a single species of bacteria?

From what I've researched about it there actually does seem to be something special about PNS bacteria primarily because of their multiple metabolic pathways and resilience as well as serving as a probiotic (i know that term gets thrown around too much these days though). That's why I'm interested in it...no i haven't cultured a single strain of bacteria before but have cultured single strains of other microorganisms. Do you have reason to believe it's not worth culturing? I really am interested in your opinion because to get it here won't be cheap.

 

[Dan_P]

From what I've researched about it there actually does seem to be something special about PNS bacteria primarily because of their multiple metabolic pathways and resilience as well as serving as a probiotic (i know that term gets thrown around too much these days though). That's why I'm interested in it...no i haven't cultured a single strain of bacteria before but have cultured single strains of other microorganisms. Do you have reason to believe it's not worth culturing? I really am interested in your opinion because to get it here won't be cheap.

No specific watch outs, just surprised that someone wanted to grow a specific species of bacteria. I had thoughts of “ hey, looking for the fountain of youth?”

After reading your subsequent posts I understand better what you are thinking. This is an exploratory investigation, a wildcatting venture. Go for it.

Question. What do think about culturing a multiple species collection of bacteria? For example, taking aquarium water, adding it to a medium to grow out the native species and then return it to the aquarium to feed the coral? With your background and interest in coral reef restoration, you might see a flaw in this approach.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

No specific watch outs, just surprised that someone wanted to grow a specific species of bacteria. I had thoughts of “ hey, looking for the fountain of youth?”

After reading your subsequent posts I understand better what you are thinking. This is an exploratory investigation, a wildcatting venture. Go for it.

Question. What do think about culturing a multiple species collection of bacteria? For example, taking aquarium water, adding it to a medium to grow out the native species and then return it to the aquarium to feed the coral? With your background and interest in coral reef restoration, you might see a flaw in this approach.

Personally I'd love to have a bacterioplankton mixture if consistency could be maintained but i don't know of any way to ensure the ratio of the hundreds or thousands of bacterial species in a natural water sample (say from one of the islands) would stay the same and not slowly (or even rapidly) shift to only a few or a handful of species becoming overwhelmingly prevalent. Kind of like when people try to culture different species of copepods together usually one species dominates after a little while. Also, i don't know of an easy way to identify the bacteria which would become most prominent at species level without some sort of DNA sequencing. That's the only reason why I was looking at a product with only one species of bacteria. If you have other suggestions or tips though I really would love to hear them! Ideally the species of bacterioplankton would be highly nutritious and promote health and growth in all corals but SPS particularly.

 

[ReefHunter006]

Good luck culturing. It’s been pointed out that there may be a connection based on the studies linked previously. I think it’s great you’re looking, researching, and generally concerned about trying to improve the well being for your animals. I think all of us are here to do that. I hope it is a net positive, because we all know very little regarding this topic.

I am excited to see how my aquabiomics test has changed since I started using it, if it has at all.

Don’t let the “I don’t do it, so you shouldn’t” stand in the way.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Thanks! Like i said, I definitely plan to order some regardless of the shipping cost (America is actually the cheapest option despite the distance ironically). So if i were looking to culture one of your 3 primary products with the goal of feeding SPS corals for health/growth as well as reducing detritus buildup and reducing phosphate and nitrate levels, PNS Probio would be the best option, right?

The two saltwater PNSB we cultivate are pretty similar. But for what you're asking, I guess I'd say Rhodopseudomonas, if only because it POTENTIALLY can remove more nitrate (i.e., it can perform denitrification in addition to removing nitrate through assimilation).

In addition to PNS ProBio (which you can get from BRS, SaltwaterAquariumDOTcom, Premium Aquatics, AlgaeBarn and others in the U.S.), another option for obtaining a monoculture of Rhodopseudomonas is the PNS HomeGro kit (especially if you want larger volumes and are interested in growing your own). This kit is the only product we ship direct retail, and it only ships within the U.S. If by some chance you know someone in Canada, you can get it online there through J&L Aquatics. The kit, by the way, has a super low shipping weight, so wouldn't cost any more to ship than a couple bottles of ProBio.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I would add... If you're doing some of this with coral reef restoration in mind, and if you or someone you work with is using so-called microbial probiotic cocktails as part of that work, I would suggest looking into Roseobacter spp.

Roseobacter is another purple anoxygenic phototroph, though unlike the ones we sell, it is primarily aerobic. I've grown it (Roseobacter denitrificans), though not at a commercial scale.

The reason it's important is because of its huge role in phosphorus cycling. It's extremely abundant in healthy reefs, with various representatives of the Roseobacter clade sometimes accounting for as much as 20% of bacterial cells in some marine habitats (that's a lot). There's much one could say about that, but I'll let you drop into that rabbit hole if you wish. All I'll say here is that Roseobacter spp. is one of the major consumers of an organosulfur compound called dimethylsulfoniopropionate (DMSP). DMSP is the stuff that makes that 'ocean smell.' It's a metabolite that is produced in abundance by marine plants and algae, including zooxanthellae. Actually, it's made mostly under stressful conditions.

Normally, coral reefs release quite a bit of DMSP, but release crazy amounts when the corals are unhealthy. Most of us already know that Vibrio is one of those really abundant bacteria that can opportunistically attack corals, right? Well, guess how they find the most stressed corals to attack? They are attracted to, and even swim towards, sources of DMSP. Vibrio doesn't even consume DMSP, but uses it exclusively to locate weakened coral hosts. Roseobacter does, however, consume DMSP, and in so doing helps to mask the most vulnerable corals from disease. That, and they produce some of their own antimicrobial substances that may inhibit Vibrio.

Even better for preventing coral vibriosis might be a mix of Roseobacter and Rhodopseudomonas, as the latter most definitely synthesizes antibiotics such as streptomycin that clearly inhibit Vibrio (which is why, for example, it's used so extensively in the Pacific white shrimp industry as a probiotic).

But anyway, that's some food for more thought.

 

[AlienReef]

Siempre que las botellas no se congelen, la temperatura (incluidas las temperaturas muy altas) no afectará la viabilidad de este producto. Además, tiene una vida útil de al menos ocho meses (probablemente mucho más), por lo que no es necesario acelerar el envío.

Hay muchos ejemplos de la literatura científica (gran parte de los cuales están disponibles en línea) que demuestran que los corales consumen bacterias rizobianas en general y PNSB como Rhodopseudomonas específicamente. Del mismo modo, hay muchos ejemplos en los que observamos corales que absorben estas bacterias como endosimbiontes (de ahí nuestra designación como probiótico). Tenga en cuenta que consideramos todo el nitrógeno derivado de diazotrofos (DDN) como una contribución a la dieta de un coral, es decir, el nitrógeno que fijan estas bacterias, además del que se obtiene directamente al comer las bacterias mismas.

Aquí hay uno de esos estudios de los corales del Pacífico y otro de los corales del Atlántico. Para obtener más información, busque en Google términos como Rhodopseudomonas+coral+holobiont. Además, consulte "Conozca a los diazótrofos: el papel subestimado de las bacterias fijadoras de nitrógeno en la vida secreta de los corales", CORAL Magazine vol. 18, núm. 4 (julio/agosto de 2021).

¡Espero que eso ayude!

Hello Kenneth Wingerter. I just received my bottle of PNS ProBio. Is it normal for it to have a strong smell? It's stinkier than Wello PNS

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hello Kenneth Wingerter. I just received my bottle of PNS ProBio. Is it normal for it to have a strong smell? It's stinkier than Wello PNS

Yes, to me it's somewhat like a strong kambucha? I think you're all good!