Any opinions on rhinopias frondosa, the weedy scorpion? Current owners?

[Treehrtsme]

Naturally the fish is a big investment, but it seems suppliers who can get them on a somwhat regular basis

Anyone had recent experience with them? I've done a lot of research on how hard they are to keep but there's a lot of mixed opinions.

To me it's sounds like the can be a lot of issue initially, bacterial infection that is hard to treat, sore spots on the mouth or chin to the shipping errors proper diet and eventually life span of 1-3 years. Once theu are stable in a tank and eating it sounds like they're hardy.

For any who has purchased a frondosa or other scorpion fish, how did things go? I had a sponsoring vender tell me it wouldn't hurt to much to even just skip qt

Is it common for these fish to arrive unhealthy and pass in a few weeks

I've read through all of @lionking articles but I'm interest if there is been any changes in the trade since he became inactive

Also do they have lighting preferences?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Naturally the fish is a big investment, but it seems suppliers who can get them on a somwhat regular basis

Anyone had recent experience with them? I've done a lot of research on how hard they are to keep but there's a lot of mixed opinions.

To me it's sounds like the can be a lot of issue initially, bacterial infection that is hard to treat, sore spots on the mouth or chin to the shipping errors proper diet and eventually life span of 1-3 years. Once theu are stable in a tank and eating it sounds like they're hardy.

For any who has purchased a frondosa or other scorpion fish, how did things go? I had a sponsoring vender tell me it wouldn't hurt to much to even just skip qt

Is it common for these fish to arrive unhealthy and pass in a few weeks

I've read through all of @lionking articles but I'm interest if there is been any changes in the trade since he became inactive

Also do they have lighting preferences?

I agree - never buy one of these if they have a "bumped" lower jaw, and then, despite your best work, they generally only live 2 to 3 years in captivity. I wrote an article about them back in 2004:

The Rhinopias Scorpionfish

The outrageous looking Rhinopias Scorpionfish; with their lacy fins, grotesque mouth, goggle eyes and fabulous colors are a magnificent fish in anyone’s opinion. You see their picture in virtually every marine aquarium fish book, their likeness often graces the cover of dive magazines, and they are sometimes featured on nature shows. With all that publicity, you might think that seeing a live one for yourself would be a relatively simple matter. This may not be the case for most people. For example, as an aquarist for over 30 years (and a public aquarist/curator for half that time) I have seen only three members of this group of fish – and have actually owned only two of those. Growing to a length of 23 cm, the most common species, the Weedy Scorpionfish (Rhinopias frondosa) is reported from rocky reefs near algae growth in the Indo-West Pacific: East Africa to the Caroline Islands, north to southern Japan at a depth of 13 to 90 meters (FishBase 1999).

Other species of the genus Rhinopias are available from time to time, but are generally much more rarely seen. R. aphanes, the Merlet’s scorpionfish is perhaps the most photographed member of this group. It is apparently a crinoid mimic, and is often found in association with those echinoderms. They generally cost around twice the price of a weedy scorpionfish – if they are ever available. They are reported to inhabit coral reef slopes in the Western Pacific: Australia, New Caledonia, New Guinea, and north to Japan (FishBase 1999). One public aquarium recently reported acquiring a specimen of R. eschmeyeri (endemic to Mauritius in the Indian Ocean) and it is doing very well so far. Some color forms of R. frondosa resemble a more brightly colored R. eschmeyeri while others tend to look like a dull colored R. aphanes. This can make exact identification of these three species difficult for the casual observer.

Rhinopias xenops is a relatively drab species found in deeper water around Hawaii. Aquarists report that this species offers no unusual husbandry challenges, and although rare, accepted non-living food quite readily, and was not prone to developing lower jaw lesions (N. Chan 2001).

By far the most sought after member of the group is the bright red R. argoliba, known only from Sagami Bay, Japan. Reported to feed on fishes and crabs, this temperate water species grows to around 8 inches in length (FishBase 1999). Recently, a rare marine fish dealer in Japan had one of these available (price unknown!) and he remarked it was the first time they had ever had this species available, and that the had collected it themselves while diving. The only other species, Rhinopias cea is apparently known from one specimen collected at Easter Island at a depth of 5 meters (FishBase 1999). This remote location means that this species will probably never become available to marine aquarists. Recently however, two other Easter Island endemic species (Chaetodon litus and Centropyge hotumatua) were advertised for sale. Since R. cea is reported from the same region, it may be just be a matter of time before it is also made available to aquarists (at least those who are willing to pay the price!).

These fish all have some unique natural attributes that they carry over to life in captivity. When excited by potential prey, or threatened by some nearby movement, the fish will often rock back and forth while resting on its pectoral fins – looking like a tangled ball of seaweed being tossed back and forth by the waves. Evidently the Rhinopias scorpionfish have great faith in this ability to look like a plant – they rarely hide amongst rocks or plants, and spend most of their time right out in the open – “hiding in plain sight”. If this ruse fails, weedy scorpionfish have been seen to “hold their breath” in aquariums when they are frightened. The slight movement of a fish’s gill covers may give them away to either prey or potential predators. By not moving their gill covers for extended periods of time, weedy scorpionfish may gain an edge on their prey, or remain better hidden from their predators. Some specimens of the weedy scorpionfish have two bright (almost reflective) white colored round spots below their eyes, and about half way between their eyes and the end of their mouth. When viewed from the front (as if you were a prey item) these spots seem to mimic the eyes of a smaller animal. The Weedy Scorpionfish‘s real eyes are well camouflaged, and are almost indistinguishable from the rest of the fish’s body. It is unknown exactly what purpose these “false eyes” may serve, but it may be that they confuse potential prey items. For example, a damselfish may key in on the distance between a fish’s eyes in order to determine if the animal is a possible predator. Seeing, the smaller, closer together white “eyespots” on the snout of a Weedy Scorpionfish might not elicit any sort of an escape response, at least it might fool the damselfish long enough for the scorpionfish to capture and swallow it.

Like some other members of the family, weedy scorpionfish shed their skin in an apparent attempt to reduce parasites and the growth of fouling organisms such as algae. The frequency of this feat seems to vary with individual fish from about once every two weeks (Michael 1998) to once every 8 weeks (personal observation). The difference in these rates may be a result of different aquarium lighting conditions, parasite load and other factors. These fish also posses the ability to gradually change the color of their skin to better mimic that of surrounding tank decorations. It is unknown how just how flexible they are in this regard, it is imagined that while a tan fish might turn slightly pinkish over time, it is doubtful that one would be able to turn from tan to bright purple.

Their upturned jaws are obviously designed to capture fish that swim overhead, and the speed of their strike rivals that of an anglerfish. Other scorpionfish such as Pterois sp. lionfish, are a bit slower in swallowing their prey and they have terminal mouths, usually feeding on prey directly ahead of them. One Rhinopias frondosa refused all food, living or dead for 6 weeks following its importation. This has not been a issue reported by other aquarists who have worked with this and similar species in captivity. As the situation was unlikely to improve without intervention, it was decided to attempt force-feeding the animal. Never a routine procedure with fish, it was made more difficult by the animal’s presumably toxic spines, requiring special care during the process. Using MS-222 at 75 ppm, the animal was anesthetized and carefully turned upside down. Using a syringe and thin tubing, 10 ml of a mixture of powdered fish food and water was injected into its stomach. The fish was returned to its aquarium to revive. Interestingly, it began feeding on its own the next day.

In another instance, a Rhinopias frondosa was maintained by itself in a 40-gallon aquarium. Over time, a population of gammarid amphipods began to flourish in the gravel. These are most often seen in aquariums that frequently have uneaten food settling on the gravel. In this case, all food was immediately eaten by the Rhinopias, so the presumed food source of the amphipods was the fecal matter produced by the Rhinopias. This theory was given more credence when an amphipod was seen entering the scorpionfish‘s anus and then exiting a short time later. Coprophagy (feeding on feces) is a well known, but infrequently seen feeding strategy. In this instance, the crawling of the amphipods on the skin and in the anus of the scorpionfish caused it a high degree of discomfort. This resulted in the fish "flashing" and rubbing its anal opening on the aquarium’s substrate. To remedy this problem, the population of amphipods was first reduced by capturing them in a commercially available tube trap. More complete control was then undertaken by removing the scorpionfish and dosing the entire tank with formalin at a rate of 200 parts per million. To calculate this, multiply the aquarium's volume by the dosage and divide by 264. In this case it was 200 ppm * 40 gallons / 264 = 30 ml of formalin. At the end of one hour, all the water was drained from the tank (using a siphon tube to clean the gravel of dead amphipods at the same time). The tank was then re-filled, the scorpionfish was returned to it. As high dose formalin treatments can damage an aquarium’s biological filtration system, it is generally a good idea to monitor an aquarium’s ammonia and nitrite levels for a few weeks following a treatment like this.

Rhinopias soon learn to anticipate being fed by recognizing the movements made by an aquarist as they approach the tank. At first, these fish will feed only on living fish, but a healthy specimen should train over to non-living food very easily. This is much better for the animal due to reduced chances for disease introduction, and is much less expensive for the aquarist. From a nutritional basis, it is usually best to train these fish to feed on some prepared foods (such as gelatin-based foods and other moist diets) as well.

As with many predatory fishes, if weedy scorpionfish are fed large amounts of food on a frequent basis, they will usually develop fatty liver disease and will live much shorter lives as a result. Conversely, if an aquarist overreacts to this potential problem, and withholds too much food from the fish, starvation could result. Human nature usually errs in the other direction – most scorpionfish are “killed with kindness”; too much fatty food, fed to them much too often. Most adult scorpionfish need to be fed only twice a week, and then just enough to “round out” their bellies.

The primary medical problem facing members of this genus in captivity is lesions that develop on their jaws from rubbing it against a hard surface. One aquarist identified the source of irritation in one fish as being the shipping bag (Michael 1998). In other cases, the lesions seem to develop from the fish too actively striking at prey, and ending up hitting the aquarium’s substrate with their jaws.

As with any scorpionfish held in captivity, the caretaker must know how venomous the animals are, and handle them with appropriate care. The toxicity of various species to humans varies from minor discomfort to death. No listings could be found describing the actual toxicity of these fish on humans, so one needs to assume the “worst case scenario” and treat these species with as much care as you would the deadly members of the family. First aid for a person being stung by one of these fish should be as follows: (Adapted from Halstead, 1978)

 

[Justfebreezeit]

My dad had a blue one about 15 years ago. It was awesome and lived about a year before a cold snap/ heater failure killed him.

My dad never qtd anything just popped him in the tank so no experience there.

 

[Treehrtsme]

never buy one of these if they have a "bumped" lower jaw

I hear this happens due to irritation of the bag during the shipping process? Is there anything I could do to ask a seller that would prevent this? Or does it relate to something else entirely? I would be to examine the fish via video calls but it would still be shipped

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I hear this happens due to irritation of the bag during the shipping process? Is there anything I could do to ask a seller that would prevent this? Or does it relate to something else entirely? I would be to examine the fish via video calls but it would still be shipped

As I mentioned in the article, the chin lesions are a result of rubbing against a hard surface. That may happen during shipping, but it could also be an issue when these fish are held in small chambers overseas, prior to shipment.

The trouble is that these lesions become infected and for some reason, this species has difficulty overcoming those lesions. You should avoid buying one that has a "chin bump".

 

[Treehrtsme]

Well I pulled the trigger on one today. I got pictures and video of it and how it was being packed so I can confirm there's no Chin issues. It's also a small specimen about three and a half maybe 4 in and it's being shipped in a lot of water so I don't have major concerns, but I do have a quarantine tank setup that he will initially go into. It's an established 13.5 that I've had for a while just holding macro algae so I moved some of the macro allergy into a smaller algae reactor hooked up all my probes and temperature sensors and started working on getting the parameters right. Hopefully this will go well and if it does the fact that I have a younger fish will hopefully mean I'll have a chance for better longevity in captivity. My only issue is sourcing food. I have a store near me that sells black moles but they're a freshwater. I haven't had much luck with finding saltwater feeder fish at my local fish stores unless I want to start feeding this thing chromis and damsels all the time.


I know it's possible to acclimate mollies to brackish and potentially breed them but have never done this myself, does anyone have any experience?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well I pulled the trigger on one today. I got pictures and video of it and how it was being packed so I can confirm there's no Chin issues. It's also a small specimen about three and a half maybe 4 in and it's being shipped in a lot of water so I don't have major concerns, but I do have a quarantine tank setup that he will initially go into. It's an established 13.5 that I've had for a while just holding macro algae so I moved some of the macro allergy into a smaller algae reactor hooked up all my probes and temperature sensors and started working on getting the parameters right. Hopefully this will go well and if it does the fact that I have a younger fish will hopefully mean I'll have a chance for better longevity in captivity. My only issue is sourcing food. I have a store near me that sells black moles but they're a freshwater. I haven't had much luck with finding saltwater feeder fish at my local fish stores unless I want to start feeding this thing chromis and damsels all the time.


I know it's possible to acclimate mollies to brackish and potentially breed them but have never done this myself, does anyone have any experience?

I always convert my Rhinopias over to non-living food. It is pretty easy to do. The only thing you need to be aware of is that some fish (living or dead) contain thiaminase. This enzyme breaks down vitamin B1 (thiamin) and can cause deficiencies in fish fed that. True silversides are good but many brands of "silversides" being sold are actually small smelt, and those have thiaminase in them. Here is a thread I posted about that:

Alternative foods for predatory fish

Hello I have some predatory fish (miniatus grouper, clown grouper, tesalata eel, small red tooth trigger) I am currently feed them whole fish sold at my local fish shop but its becoming quite pricey what other alternatives could I fees them from a supermarket?

www.reef2reef.com

Here is an excerpt I wrote about training fish to eat non-living foods:

Converting piscivores to feed on non-living foods​

One basic principle of life in the sea is that big fish often eat little fish. Many carnivorous fish feed exclusively on smaller fish and are termed obligate piscivores. When brought into captivity, this feeding behavior can become a liability, as small, living marine fish are too expensive to feed to larger fish on a regular basis. When one of these fish is collected and brought into captivity, it may not have fed normally for up to a month prior to that time. The first consideration is of course to get the animal feeding as usual. This often entails offering the piscivore some small live fish, which are usually accepted with much gusto. Lionfish, anglerfish, trumpetfish and many others will accept live fish quite readily from the first day they are placed into an aquarium. The question is then; can this feeding regimen be sustained? For aquarists near the ocean, this may not be a problem as they can usually collect some manner of small live fish to feed their animals. Inland aquarists have more of a problem. Buying damselfish, marine killifish or other species becomes too expensive. Mollies and Gambusia can be adapted to living in seawater and then be used as a live food source. Live feeder goldfish and guppies may be accepted but have serious nutritional deficiencies when fed to marine fish for long periods (See thiaminase section above). If nothing else, using live fish as food is abhorrent to some aquarists, and is never really a convenient or cost-effective food source. The alternative then is to train the piscivorous fish to accept some type of non-living food. The following process has worked for every species of obligate piscivore, as long as the aquarist spends the time and effort required to allow the method to succeed:


1) The first step is to stabilize the new fish and get it to accept any live fish of appropriate size as a first meal (At the same time, general quarantine issues must be addressed). Do not allow the new fish to spend too much time at this stage. It is very common to have fish become “addicted” to one particular type of live food if it is used for too long of a time. As soon as the fish is routinely accepting live fish and has become somewhat conditioned to associate your approach with an impending meal, it is time to try step two.

2) Using the same species of food fish that the animal is accustomed to, freeze some, then offer the animal a mixture of living, and thawed / dead fish. By chance, it will likely swallow some of the dead fish while searching out the live fish. If this fails, try impaling a live fish on a broom straw or 3/16” clear tubing and offer it to the fish that way. Once accepted, switch to impaling previously frozen fish and feed in the same manner.

3) Continue introducing more thawed whole fish to the animal’s diet each day until the animal is not being offered any live or fresh food. It may help to forcefully toss the dead fish into the aquarium so that their motion is more likely to elicit a feeding response.

4) Eventually, the predator should be feeding solely on thawed, whole fish tossed into the aquarium. At this point, use a knife and remove the head of each of the frozen fish, so that the predator then becomes accustomed to feeding on just the fish’s body. The reason for taking this step is that most piscivores clue in on their prey’s eyes as a means to make an effective capture. When the eyes of their food item are removed, this primary feeding cue is removed and they may not recognize the item as food. Once the piscivore has overcome this need, they are one step closer to being trained to feed on prepared food items.

5) The next step to take is to switch the fish to begin feeding on a different type of fish flesh such as smelt. To make this transition, use a sharp knife to cut a piece of smelt into a good facsimile of the headless fish that the animal has been used to feeding on. Drop these smelt pieces into the aquarium and they will usually be accepted with little problem.

6) At this stage, the predatory fish is usually willing to begin accepting almost any food item including prepared gelatin foods. Never allow the fish to “backslide”, avoid the temptation to give it a live fish as a treat from time to time. The fish may relapse; and you may find that you will have to start the training process all over again.

 

[Treehrtsme]

I always convert my Rhinopias over to non-living food. It is pretty easy to do. The only thing you need to be aware of is that some fish (living or dead) contain thiaminase. This enzyme breaks down vitamin B1 (thiamin) and can cause deficiencies in fish fed that. True silversides are good but many brands of "silversides" being sold are actually small smelt, and those have thiaminase in them. Here is a thread I posted about that:

Alternative foods for predatory fish

Hello I have some predatory fish (miniatus grouper, clown grouper, tesalata eel, small red tooth trigger) I am currently feed them whole fish sold at my local fish shop but its becoming quite pricey what other alternatives could I fees them from a supermarket?

www.reef2reef.com

Here is an excerpt I wrote about training fish to eat non-living foods:

Converting piscivores to feed on non-living foods​

One basic principle of life in the sea is that big fish often eat little fish. Many carnivorous fish feed exclusively on smaller fish and are termed obligate piscivores. When brought into captivity, this feeding behavior can become a liability, as small, living marine fish are too expensive to feed to larger fish on a regular basis. When one of these fish is collected and brought into captivity, it may not have fed normally for up to a month prior to that time. The first consideration is of course to get the animal feeding as usual. This often entails offering the piscivore some small live fish, which are usually accepted with much gusto. Lionfish, anglerfish, trumpetfish and many others will accept live fish quite readily from the first day they are placed into an aquarium. The question is then; can this feeding regimen be sustained? For aquarists near the ocean, this may not be a problem as they can usually collect some manner of small live fish to feed their animals. Inland aquarists have more of a problem. Buying damselfish, marine killifish or other species becomes too expensive. Mollies and Gambusia can be adapted to living in seawater and then be used as a live food source. Live feeder goldfish and guppies may be accepted but have serious nutritional deficiencies when fed to marine fish for long periods (See thiaminase section above). If nothing else, using live fish as food is abhorrent to some aquarists, and is never really a convenient or cost-effective food source. The alternative then is to train the piscivorous fish to accept some type of non-living food. The following process has worked for every species of obligate piscivore, as long as the aquarist spends the time and effort required to allow the method to succeed:


1) The first step is to stabilize the new fish and get it to accept any live fish of appropriate size as a first meal (At the same time, general quarantine issues must be addressed). Do not allow the new fish to spend too much time at this stage. It is very common to have fish become “addicted” to one particular type of live food if it is used for too long of a time. As soon as the fish is routinely accepting live fish and has become somewhat conditioned to associate your approach with an impending meal, it is time to try step two.

2) Using the same species of food fish that the animal is accustomed to, freeze some, then offer the animal a mixture of living, and thawed / dead fish. By chance, it will likely swallow some of the dead fish while searching out the live fish. If this fails, try impaling a live fish on a broom straw or 3/16” clear tubing and offer it to the fish that way. Once accepted, switch to impaling previously frozen fish and feed in the same manner.

3) Continue introducing more thawed whole fish to the animal’s diet each day until the animal is not being offered any live or fresh food. It may help to forcefully toss the dead fish into the aquarium so that their motion is more likely to elicit a feeding response.

4) Eventually, the predator should be feeding solely on thawed, whole fish tossed into the aquarium. At this point, use a knife and remove the head of each of the frozen fish, so that the predator then becomes accustomed to feeding on just the fish’s body. The reason for taking this step is that most piscivores clue in on their prey’s eyes as a means to make an effective capture. When the eyes of their food item are removed, this primary feeding cue is removed and they may not recognize the item as food. Once the piscivore has overcome this need, they are one step closer to being trained to feed on prepared food items.

5) The next step to take is to switch the fish to begin feeding on a different type of fish flesh such as smelt. To make this transition, use a sharp knife to cut a piece of smelt into a good facsimile of the headless fish that the animal has been used to feeding on. Drop these smelt pieces into the aquarium and they will usually be accepted with little problem.

6) At this stage, the predatory fish is usually willing to begin accepting almost any food item including prepared gelatin foods. Never allow the fish to “backslide”, avoid the temptation to give it a live fish as a treat from time to time. The fish may relapse; and you may find that you will have to start the training process all over again.

Yeah, I believe I actually have some of the legitimate silver shirts , San Francisco Bay was it? Problem is I got them in today in acclimated him and he's really small. At this point I'm almost thinking about starting with guppies unless I can find some small black mollies. Working with dwarf fuzzies, just fed them live shrimp for a day or two and then got some krill defrosted it kind of wriggled it around the tank on a tiny stick till it caught their eye and they got a little excited and then I brought it up and dipped it down into the tank and within a couple of days they were on the stuff.

 

[Treehrtsme]

I plan on getting them on Frozen as soon as possible but last night he was looking a little skinny so I gave him a black molly. He sucked it right up and I deserved him for at least 20 minutes but an hour later the thing was floating at the top of the tank. Is this a sign of anything or did he just not like it? I'm going to try the good old classic krill or whatnot on a stick today and see if it catches his attention but he's definitely interested in anything swimming around the tank

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I plan on getting them on Frozen as soon as possible but last night he was looking a little skinny so I gave him a black molly. He sucked it right up and I deserved him for at least 20 minutes but an hour later the thing was floating at the top of the tank. Is this a sign of anything or did he just not like it? I'm going to try the good old classic krill or whatnot on a stick today and see if it catches his attention but he's definitely interested in anything swimming around the tank

I'm not sure what that means - I've never had a Rhinopias vomit food back up like that. Was it a large molly? In other words, did it take the fish some time to swallow it?

 

[Treehrtsme]

I'm not sure what that means - I've never had a Rhinopias vomit food back up like that. Was it a large molly? In other words, did it take the fish some time to swallow it?

That might have been the case I mean I could kind of see it go down as GI tract for about 20 minutes and he did seem to struggle a little but if it was a frogfish of the same size I couldn't imagine that happening. Given this is the smallest weedy scorpion fish I've ever seen so in comparison the Molly would be a bit large

 

[Treehrtsme]

That might have been the case I mean I could kind of see it go down as GI tract for about 20 minutes and he did seem to struggle a little but if it was a frogfish of the same size I couldn't imagine that happening. Given this is the smallest weedy scorpion fish I've ever seen so in comparison the Molly would be a bit large

He didn't seem to take much interest in the krill but yesterday he did eat a small guppy. Try the guppies again but the ones I have left are honestly almost too small and don't swim down towards the bottom of the tank. I'll try another Molly if it comes to that, but he doesn't seem especially unhealthy. If I can't get the grill to work then it's on to the silver sliders

 

[Treehrtsme]

I'm not sure what that means - I've never had a Rhinopias vomit food back up like that. Was it a large molly? In other words, did it take the fish some time to swallow it?

Well I don't know if he's doing well or even alive. I suspect perhaps bacterial infection or parasites. I also suspect that the person I received them from was what the lion king would refer to as a jobber, someone who just transports and buys fish out of a large facility. I last time voluntarily move about 5 hours ago, and then he was just chilling in the same place until I found him lying on his side by a rock.

I don't know the details but I know that he was in the tank being treated with copper for a period of time which I didn't know right off the bat (cupramine) could that be what is hurting him?

It's honestly hard to tell if this fish is alive and breathing or not to be honest as it barely moves. I had an established tank with no living fish in it that I prep for quarantine days in advance and did the most rigorous and careful acclamation I've done in my life yet a little more than 24 hours in the tank and it doesn't seem like he's doing good. I'm going to try to contact the person once again but I didn't really get any advice from them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well I don't know if he's doing well or even alive. I suspect perhaps bacterial infection or parasites. I also suspect that the person I received them from was what the lion king would refer to as a jobber, someone who just transports and buys fish out of a large facility. I last time voluntarily move about 5 hours ago, and then he was just chilling in the same place until I found him lying on his side by a rock.

I don't know the details but I know that he was in the tank being treated with copper for a period of time which I didn't know right off the bat (cupramine) could that be what is hurting him?

It's honestly hard to tell if this fish is alive and breathing or not to be honest as it barely moves. I had an established tank with no living fish in it that I prep for quarantine days in advance and did the most rigorous and careful acclamation I've done in my life yet a little more than 24 hours in the tank and it doesn't seem like he's doing good. I'm going to try to contact the person once again but I didn't really get any advice from them.

Sorry, I can't tell you much from the description. Can you see it breathing? (try looking at the back of the gill flaps) If so, can you count how many breaths it takes in a minute?

Cupramine is a bit harsh for this species, but removing it from the copper would have resolved any issues, and whatever is going on with this fish has begun in your tank (i.e., it was eating the first day or so and now is acting lethargic). That implies either a progressive disease issue, or some water quality issue.

Jay

 

[Treehrtsme]

I actually suspect it died in under 24 hours and I just thought it was alive for some time as they're fairly sedentary. There were some red flags when I was purchasing from the seller, but in perspective I feel as if he was just a really good used car salesman. He kept insisting that they were easy acclimators and extremely Hardy in the tank, which for my experience with the Scorpionideas isn't typically the case the hardiest likely being lionfish. He even went as far as to say it have good chances of survival if I just acclimated it straight into my main display. The fish had already been putting in a bag in a box before I made a full commitment to purchase it, I got notification that the UPS labeled already been made hours before I committed to purchase it. I got a couple of questionable pictures and a very low quality video of it in a bag in a box.I suppose I got me somehow optimistic especially with my past experience with predators. I was suspicious about the medications as well but I wasn't familiar with that one in particular as it would never be my first choice. With 15 or so years and this hobby I have never put so much time effort and attention into an acclimation and ensuring of quarantine tank was in perfect matching condition. An example I was told I would receive the fish in a large amount of water at a salinity level of 1.020 but across two different monitors the salinity measured at 1.027 and I had already set my quarantine to 1.020. when I should the seller the picture of the fish lying on his side last evening he just responded and said oh that doesn't look good and told me to add oxygen, which I was already running and then just ghosted me when I started asking about treatment or medications and such. I'm going to reach out to him again today and see if we can work things out before I start explaining anymore details of this entire situation especially considering he's a platinum sponsor and depending on how it goes I'll leave a review and possibly have to take measures if things aren't amenable. Multiple occasions I have acclimated fish much more harshly than this or simply dump them in the tank including fish as sensitive as this, and not that I'm proud of it, but I have never had one of them die as fast as this.

Lion King had written that copper is detrimental to lionfish and scorpion fish and the damage can often be seen after treatment, citing that he dissected fish on multiple occasions to see their livers almost melted out

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I actually suspect it died in under 24 hours and I just thought it was alive for some time as they're fairly sedentary. There were some red flags when I was purchasing from the seller, but in perspective I feel as if he was just a really good used car salesman. He kept insisting that they were easy acclimators and extremely Hardy in the tank, which for my experience with the Scorpionideas isn't typically the case the hardiest likely being lionfish. He even went as far as to say it have good chances of survival if I just acclimated it straight into my main display. The fish had already been putting in a bag in a box before I made a full commitment to purchase it, I got notification that the UPS labeled already been made hours before I committed to purchase it. I got a couple of questionable pictures and a very low quality video of it in a bag in a box.I suppose I got me somehow optimistic especially with my past experience with predators. I was suspicious about the medications as well but I wasn't familiar with that one in particular as it would never be my first choice. With 15 or so years and this hobby I have never put so much time effort and attention into an acclimation and ensuring of quarantine tank was in perfect matching condition. An example I was told I would receive the fish in a large amount of water at a salinity level of 1.020 but across two different monitors the salinity measured at 1.027 and I had already set my quarantine to 1.020. when I should the seller the picture of the fish lying on his side last evening he just responded and said oh that doesn't look good and told me to add oxygen, which I was already running and then just ghosted me when I started asking about treatment or medications and such. I'm going to reach out to him again today and see if we can work things out before I start explaining anymore details of this entire situation especially considering he's a platinum sponsor and depending on how it goes I'll leave a review and possibly have to take measures if things aren't amenable. Multiple occasions I have acclimated fish much more harshly than this or simply dump them in the tank including fish as sensitive as this, and not that I'm proud of it, but I have never had one of them die as fast as this.

Lion King had written that copper is detrimental to lionfish and scorpion fish and the damage can often be seen after treatment, citing that he dissected fish on multiple occasions to see their livers almost melted out

Sorry to hear all that.

Yes, lion king was a strong proponent of copper causing latent damage to fish (months/years later). I vehemently disagreed with that. I've used copper as a protozoal treatment for 40+ years as a public aquarium manager, and while ionic copper (like cupramine or plain copper sulfate) can cause acute mortality in some fish, it does NOT cause fish loss later on, after the copper has been removed. Amine-chelated copper (coppersafe and copper power are always safer to use for acute toxicity issues).

Rhinopias are pretty delicate, even if they don't develop chin lesions.

The salinity differential that you described (moving from high to low), while not optimum, is not nearly as serious as the typical scenario that we see here, where fish are shipped at low salinity and moved too quickly into a high salinity. The latter is a real killer of fish - raising the salinity must be done slowly, over days.

 

[Treehrtsme]

Sorry to hear all that.

Yes, lion king was a strong proponent of copper causing latent damage to fish (months/years later). I vehemently disagreed with that. I've used copper as a protozoal treatment for 40+ years as a public aquarium manager, and while ionic copper (like cupramine or plain copper sulfate) can cause acute mortality in some fish, it does NOT cause fish loss later on, after the copper has been removed. Amine-chelated copper (coppersafe and copper power are always safer to use for acute toxicity issues).

Rhinopias are pretty delicate, even if they don't develop chin lesions.

The salinity differential that you described (moving from high to low), while not optimum, is not nearly as serious as the typical scenario that we see here, where fish are shipped at low salinity and moved too quickly into a high salinity. The latter is a real killer of fish - raising the salinity must be done slowly, over days.

That's what concern me, because I had already spent the getting the parameters stable and the sanity at 1.020. thing in my mind was I should honestly raise the aquarium to match the bags parameters in specifically salinity. Turns out I purchased from a reseller but honestly the more I dug into everything the more off things felt. I honestly started covering my bases expecting a dispute. Like I said I don't want to share any details until everything's done and over with and I can leave a formal review, but despite telling me his former business is now one of the most successful wholesalers, he's now buying and reselling from them which I didn't really understand. But if the fish came from a massive wholesale facility I assume it would have been in one. 020 salinity water not 027. This parameter was consistent across three different tests. So somewhere along the way the salinity jumped up and then I had to bring it back down. I personally call them up and told them that I'd been acclimating for close to 2 hours and that the salinity was maybe 0.001 ish difference and he told me I was fine and to go ahead and throw it back in. I say he ate on the first day but it wasn't necessarily successful and being a sedentary fish with a little bit of current going around the bottom he will stand upright even if he's dead.

The vendor basically said the exact opposite of you and I'll go ahead and quote it

“they are hardy and I haven’t had many issues with them. They are good risk to take if you’re not going to qt them. What I mean is that they aren’t that delicate or easily attracted to illness.”

After saying this kind of stuff a couple of more times I figured all right I mean I put a decent amount of work into my quarantine the conditions have been stable almost no nutrients whatsoever and there hasn't been any livestock in it for almost a year. I don't know, I've been in the hobby for 15 years and with the fish like that I was already extremely precocious, but when he said just go ahead and throw it in there I was like, well he says he sells a ton of these things and those all about him so I'll take his word for it cuz I've never got one. It's good to have a neutral third party opinion. The other concern I had was that the level of cupramine he said he was using was I mentioned 0.8ppm or 0.08ppm for 3 days. Regardless looking back on the pictures I took of him when he came in initially I didn't notice it but I think it was ick that got him in the end. When they're that small they're a bit translucent so it's much harder to notice but now that he's dead and I unfortunately I'm trying to come to some sort of agreement I can definitely see it much better now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That's what concern me, because I had already spent the getting the parameters stable and the sanity at 1.020. thing in my mind was I should honestly raise the aquarium to match the bags parameters in specifically salinity. Turns out I purchased from a reseller but honestly the more I dug into everything the more off things felt. I honestly started covering my bases expecting a dispute. Like I said I don't want to share any details until everything's done and over with and I can leave a formal review, but despite telling me his former business is now one of the most successful wholesalers, he's now buying and reselling from them which I didn't really understand. But if the fish came from a massive wholesale facility I assume it would have been in one. 020 salinity water not 027. This parameter was consistent across three different tests. So somewhere along the way the salinity jumped up and then I had to bring it back down. I personally call them up and told them that I'd been acclimating for close to 2 hours and that the salinity was maybe 0.001 ish difference and he told me I was fine and to go ahead and throw it back in. I say he ate on the first day but it wasn't necessarily successful and being a sedentary fish with a little bit of current going around the bottom he will stand upright even if he's dead.

The vendor basically said the exact opposite of you and I'll go ahead and quote it

“they are hardy and I haven’t had many issues with them. They are good risk to take if you’re not going to qt them. What I mean is that they aren’t that delicate or easily attracted to illness.”

After saying this kind of stuff a couple of more times I figured all right I mean I put a decent amount of work into my quarantine the conditions have been stable almost no nutrients whatsoever and there hasn't been any livestock in it for almost a year. I don't know, I've been in the hobby for 15 years and with the fish like that I was already extremely precocious, but when he said just go ahead and throw it in there I was like, well he says he sells a ton of these things and those all about him so I'll take his word for it cuz I've never got one. It's good to have a neutral third party opinion. The other concern I had was that the level of cupramine he said he was using was I mentioned 0.8ppm or 0.08ppm for 3 days. Regardless looking back on the pictures I took of him when he came in initially I didn't notice it but I think it was ick that got him in the end. When they're that small they're a bit translucent so it's much harder to notice but now that he's dead and I unfortunately I'm trying to come to some sort of agreement I can definitely see it much better now.

That cupramine treatment was incorrect - it was too high for too short of a time. It should have been 0.50 ppm for 14 days. As I said, I prefer to use amine-chelated copper products instead.

The dealer saying that these are relatively hardy is probably biases to their only holding fish for a few days to a week at most. Some fish, like anthias and green chromis will show mortality during that period, but Rhinopias seem to hold on for the short term really well. Of the 7 that I have records for, I had one that lived 6 days, the rest lived 5 months to almost 4 years with an overall average of 16 months.

My guess is that the dealer gave you the salinity value for a fish system at the wholesaler, but that the Rhinopias, had instead been held in that dealer's invertebrate system at a higher salinity (it is pretty common practice for wholesalers to hold certain rare or delicate fish in their coral systems). If that's the case, this fish may not have been held in copper at all...unless the jobber held it in copper after picking it up from the importer.

Jay

 

[Treehrtsme]

Thank you so much for your time, with now what I assume is probably ick in my quarantine what is the best way to in a sense clean this tank out I have a good bit of macro algae like several softball sized worth chunks that I would like to continue to use but I'm not going to put them in other tanks if they're contaminated. There's nothing living in this tank right now except for some anthropods and maybe a bristle worm so it would just running a general copper safe or something of the sort for a matter of time and removing it with carbon work?

 

[Treehrtsme]

Thank you so much for your time, with now what I assume is probably ick in my quarantine what is the best way to in a sense clean this tank out I have a good bit of macro algae like several softball sized worth chunks that I would like to continue to use but I'm not going to put them in other tanks if they're contaminated. There's nothing living in this tank right now except for some anthropods and maybe a bristle worm so it would just running a general copper safe or something of the sort for a matter of time and removing it with carbon work?

I have fritzs