Anion stage output higher than input

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

Hello! Please help!! I need my top off water

I’ve read a few threads in the last hour or so about these stages but can’t seem to find an answer that may help me specifically.

My anion burns up faster than any stage (BRS 7 stage 200GPD) sediment and anion. I’ve replaced them both before and went down to zero. Today I learned a lot about packing etc & tbh answers why I had so much left in the bag every time I’ve replaced these.

My sediment turns orange and my anion turns orange nothing else. I was getting 17 in to cation stage, lower after anion, and 0 after mixed bed. When it bumped to 1 after the mixed bed I came to swap filters. Sediment and anion were only ones exhausted.

FOR SOME REASON I am no getting way higher numbers ~60 into cation and ~80’s after anion!!!!! 7-8tds product water

I flushed for 10-15 minutes after filter change and just let it run water for at least an hour probably more to no avail. During that time I read a lot so I came back out shut the water off took anion stage back off and re packed it again - cleaned the threads off the plastic screw cap - packed some more and screwed it shut TIGHT. I reinstalled and it’s been about another 10 min now and same issue. I don’t understand how my numbers could have gotten WORSE!! I’d rather use 1 TDS water if I had to than deal with this. This is my second filter change and granted I learned I wasn’t packing nearly well enough - I still had zero issues and zero TDS after my first change as well.

Can anyone make sense of why my TDS might be so high coming into cation BUT MORESO even HIGHER coming out of anion?!

Current exact readings are 66 into cation, 82 out of anion, and now 12 product water. So now I’m even more confused how did re packing make it even WORSE

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

all cartridges are installed right side up.

Reefer Matt · Dec 15, 2023

Maybe introduced something. Try back flushing. What tds meter are you using? And what is the condition of the membrane?

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

Reefer Matt said:
Maybe introduced something. Try back flushing. What tds meter are you using? And what is the condition of the membrane?

Whatever TDS sensors comes on the BRS kit. And I have the water saver kit and heard most membranes last around a year - water saver = 2 membranes so I haven’t checked it thinking it should be fine. And figured since it was fine before changing anion and hasn’t been messed with it should still be fine now… but I guess I’ll open that up next and check.

Reefer Matt · Dec 15, 2023

Judson_f said:
Whatever TDS sensors comes on the BRS kit. And I have the water saver kit and heard most membranes last around a year - water saver = 2 membranes so I haven’t checked it thinking it should be fine. And figured since it was fine before changing anion and hasn’t been messed with it should still be fine now… but I guess I’ll open that up next and check.

When I change my resins the tds usually goes up pretty high for a few minutes. But it goes back after running the system for a while. I let it make about 5 gallons to rinse out any impurities that may have been introduced, then dump that water.

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

Reefer Matt said:
When I change my resins the tds usually goes up pretty high for a few minutes. But it goes back after running the system for a while. I let it make about 5 gallons to rinse out any impurities that may have been introduced, then dump that water.

I have made a minimum of about 15 gallons at this point. With an anion re pack after about 8-10 gallons. I just can’t wrap my head around how the TDS shot UP so high after a simple change?! lol ugh. I was a mechanic for the navy so I’m good with filters & know not to swear by sensors but it would feel so wrong to use it anyways when product water is allegedly 11-12 *crying emoji* lol

I think I’m going to go check it again right now. I presume it will still not be in a good range. At which point I’ll cut water again and check the sediment filter and membranes. I keep a spare sediment filter on hand but have no other filters or resin - so.

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

SO of course it was still not good. one of the few things that might make sense to me was if the sediment filter wasn’t seated properly allowing dirty water to go by - that could explain the exponential jump before the cation resin - so I took it out, inspected, reseated and threaded in. Then took off RO membrane - granted idk what a BAD one looks like but this one looked perfectly fine. So re attached that - hooked it up - set it to flush and started water back up. Giving that like another 10-15 of flushing and will then shut that valve again give it another 10-15 and check the TDS. i have no freaking clue at this point. About to just overnight some carbon blocks & cation too because why not. I need top off water. lol

KStatefan · Dec 15, 2023

You can not tell if the membrane is good by looking at it go by rejection rate

DCR · Dec 15, 2023

66 ppm is really high coming out of the RO unless you have really high TDS tap water. I would think that would exhaust your DI resin pretty quickly with that feed. The meters are not accurate enough to distinguish between 66 and 80 at those high levels. It sounds like the DI's are spent and your RO's are bad. Not sure about the dual water saver arrangement but that is another potential source of the problem.

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

DCR said:
66 ppm is really high coming out of the RO unless you have really high TDS tap water. I would think that would exhaust your DI resin pretty quickly with that feed. The meters are not accurate enough to distinguish between 66 and 80 at those high levels. It sounds like the DI's are spent and your RO's are bad. Not sure about the dual water saver arrangement but that is another potential source of the problem.

Thank you for some good insight. Our local tap water is really bad always has been, so possible it really is that high. But I read elsewhere that most people have 1 out of the sediment/carbine block/membranes alone so I think that backs up what you said.

Next question - I’m 30 min from the nearest Lowe’s/walmart and 1 hour from the nearest petsmart/petco/actual city shopping center. Anybody have ideas for full replacements? Or should I just pay the expedited shipping and get distilled water for top up tomorrow? I need to top up ~3-4gallons daily. And can’t wait much longer

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

For situational diagnosing for those curious:

This system was new and first used in August. By October I had 1 TDS and replaced the sediment & anion. Back to zero. Now I’m having this issue only two months later. Only visually obvious signs of exhaustion was sediment and anion which worked last time so figured that’s all that was needed.

In-line with DCR’s response however my water is pretty darn bad (most locals do not/will not drink tap) and if it only takes 2 months to burn up sediment & anion once - I think it could be plausible that the carbons RO membranes & cations could be spent by now as well.

DCR · Dec 15, 2023

If you have very high TDS from the tap, running the water saving dual membranes may not be the best idea for producing high purity water. You may also need to run at a higher waste rate with high TDS feed by changing your restrictor. The RO and the DI are the only units that really reduce TDS. The sediment just protects your RO from plugging up with suspended solids and the carbon removes organics and chlorine.

Judson_f · Dec 15, 2023

DCR said:
If you have very high TDS from the tap, running the water saving dual membranes may not be the best idea for producing high purity water. You may also need to run at a higher waste rate with high TDS feed by changing your restrictor. The RO and the DI are the only units that really reduce TDS. The sediment just protects your RO from plugging up with suspended solids and the carbon removes organics and chlorine.

Hm. Well after seeing the cost of the RO membranes I was already looking at going ahead and getting the booster pump. I also have an extra generic BRS reactor from someone somewhere so I was thinking about adding another sediment filter, booster pump, replacing all filters and seeing what I got. Lol what do you think? I should’ve known - nothing is ever that simple in this hobby. Couldn’t just buy the most expensive BRS Rodi and call it a day, sigggh lol

DCR · Dec 15, 2023

I would not buy more expensive RODI if your water is really bad. That is not likely to help over the long run. The booster pump could help. I would look to see what the TDS of your tap water actually is and what size RO in gpd and restrictor in ml/min you have. Can you test the output of both the primary and the recovery RO's separately? Check and make sure the RO membranes are properly sealed because if it is not, it will leak reject water into the permeate side. The membrane itself could have also failed. The recovery or water saver RO takes the reject water from the primary and recovers additional water from it. It will have more TDS in the feed than your tap since it has already been concentrated by the primary and if your tap is already high it may produce really bad water. If the recovery RO is the source of high TDS, I would eliminate it. I would probably look at a new RO membrane(s), new DI and maybe test increasing the capacity of your restrictor.

Judson_f · Dec 16, 2023

DCR said:
I would not buy more expensive RODI if your water is really bad. That is not likely to help over the long run. The booster pump could help. I would look to see what the TDS of your tap water actually is and what size RO in gpd and restrictor in ml/min you have. Can you test the output of both the primary and the recovery RO's separately? Check and make sure the RO membranes are properly sealed because if it is not, it will leak reject water into the permeate side. The membrane itself could have also failed. The recovery or water saver RO takes the reject water from the primary and recovers additional water from it. It will have more TDS in the feed than your tap since it has already been concentrated by the primary and if your tap is already high it may produce really bad water. If the recovery RO is the source of high TDS, I would eliminate it. I would probably look at a new RO membrane(s), new DI and maybe test increasing the capacity of your restrictor.

Thank you so much man. You seriously have probably saved me a ton of googling time with your know how of the stuff! And the water saver explained makes a ton of sense. I need water for my tank asap so probably just going to get whatever I can to get it back up properly asap - fill my RODI reservoir - and then take apart and get parts needed etc.

After your explanation I think I will disconnect the water saver and just rig one single membrane with water pump. From what I read the kit I have comes with the 100GPD membrane, and with my poor-ish water pressure (40-45) could be another factor in the shortened lifespan. Seem to be reading pump will help

Would it be worth upgrading to a single 150 if I get the booster pump? Or as you said continue to remain cheaper if water truly is that bad? I say if because I haven’t tested or proven anything yet - but I would be willing to bet a paycheck that it really is lol

Judson_f · Dec 16, 2023

Current flow restrictor is 800ml/min

DCR · Dec 16, 2023

That should be a pretty good purge rate with 800 ml/min and a 100 gpd unit. That should give you about a 3:1 waste rate with a 100 gpd unit although it will be a less with the low pressure. If your water is really high TDS, you might go with a 1000 or 1200 ml/min restrictor. It will likely increase the life of your membranes if the feed TDS is high (at a cost of more water usage). The booster pump will improve the rejection fraction of the RO so I that is probably a good investment. It will likely reduce the TDS by about half. I still suspect your RO membranes may be faulty so I would buy replacements for them. You will use them at some point down the road anyway. And you might as well stock up on DI resin. If you can rearrange your sensors to detect the quality of each membrane it would help you troubleshoot.

Judson_f · Dec 16, 2023

I literally cannot express enough thanks to you. Going to screenshot this for reference as I continue making my own water & adjusting the set up I have.

I just got home from picking up 20gal of distilled water & placing an overnight shipping order for the aquatec 8800 booster pump kit, a full set of all new filters including 2 RO membranes. Going to set everything up as it was brand new but with the pump (I can’t believe I didn’t notice the specs say minimum 65psi and I’ve been at 45) if I have membrane issues again I will reduce to one membrane and delete the water saver kit. Water is actually dirt cheap out here but dirt quality as well lol the last city I lived in was ballpark 80 ish a month if I remember right? And here that utility is so low I only even get a bill quarterly and it’s the same. So. Pros and cons lol

I believe my negligence of required flow pressure certainly contributed to the poor life spans I’ve been getting in filters. I’m anticipating the pump to help a lot with all new filters - and if they (RO’s) burn out quickly again even with pump I will delete the saver. When my overnight order comes in so I have the system taken apart anywyas I plan on technical diagnosing/testing then (re arranging sensor so isolate specific stages etc)

THANK YOU DCR.