Am I still cycling?

[Brisk]

I got my TBS live sand about 10 days ago and my tank is cycling with that live sand only. I have some live rocks ordered but it's not here yet for another week. Is my tank still cycling with just the live sand? I've tested for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The ammonia looks like it's <.015. Nitrite is at 0 now, but it was at .1 last week. Nitrate is 0.

 

[Formulator]

Are you adding ammonia? How long since your last addition? Also, cycling without your rock is kind of a waste of time. The purpose of cycling is to get the rock loaded up with bacteria. The sand helps, but a majority of your biofilter is on the rocks. Since it is live rock, you might be alright, but you definitely don’t want to add any fish until you get the rock in and test to make sure you aren’t going to cycle again.

 

[Uncle99]

Cycled 10 days ago.
Sand has a ton of surface area.
“Live” sand was instant cycle.
Ready.

 

[Brisk]

Are you adding ammonia? How long since your last addition? Also, cycling without your rock is kind of a waste of time. The purpose of cycling is to get the rock loaded up with bacteria. The sand helps, but a majority of your biofilter is on the rocks. Since it is live rock, you might be alright, but you definitely don’t want to add any fish until you get the rock in and test to make sure you aren’t going to cycle again.

No ammonia added. Just the live sand with a few pounds of dry rock. I'm just wondering if the tank is still cycling until the live rock arrives.

 

[Brisk]

Sand has a ton of surface area.
Live sand was instant cycle.
Ready

But should I be seeing nitrates if it is instant cycle?

 

[Formulator]

Your problem is that your tank is too clean lol. You actually haven’t even started your cycle! You need to feed the bacteria with an ammonia source. You are measuring no ammonia, because you haven’t added any.

There are several options. The most common is probably just using a commercial ammonium chloride solution from one of the hobby brands. You can also make your own with food grade ammonium chloride. Option 2 is to throw a couple cocktail shrimp in the tank and let them rot to release ammonia. It won’t smell pleasant, but its a tried and true method. Final option is a fish-in cycle. Get a cheap small hardy fish and let its waste be the ammonia source. There are differing opinions on the ethics of this method, but its probably the oldest method and does work.

 

[Brisk]

Your problem is that your tank is sterile lol. You actually haven’t even started your cycle! You need to feed the bacteria with an ammonia source. You are measuring no ammonia, because you haven’t added any.

There are several options. The most common is probably just using a commercial ammonium chloride solution from one of the hobby brands. You can also make your own with food grade ammonium chloride. Option 2 is to throw a couple cocktail shrimp in the tank and let them rot to release ammonia. It won’t smell pleasant, but its a tried and true method. Final option is a fish-in cycle. Get a cheap small hardy fish and let its waste be the ammonia source. There are differing opinions on the ethics of this method, but its probably the oldest method and does work.

I see. Maybe I got my information mixed up. I thought TBS live sand from the ocean didn't need ammonia and bacteria.

 

[Formulator]

I see. Maybe I got my information mixed up. I thought TBS live sand from the ocean didn't need ammonia and bacteria.

Maybe the live sand is enough but I think that recommendation is for live rock. If you have zero nitrates, I can’t see how you could be cycled. Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then nitrate. If you have close to zero of all of them, it tells me there isn’t enough organic nitrogen in the system.

 

[Brisk]

Maybe the live sand is enough but I think that recommendation is for live rock. If you have zero nitrates, I can’t see how you could be cycled. Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then nitrate. If you have close to zero of all of them, it tells me there isn’t enough organic nitrogen in the system.

I guess I'll just wait for the live rocks to arrive. Thank you!

 

[Fish Fan]

I see. Maybe I got my information mixed up. I thought TBS live sand from the ocean didn't need ammonia and bacteria.

Hello! I started two small tanks last November using TBS sand and rock, so maybe I can help. You absolutely do not need to add any additional bottled bacteria to your system; you paid A LOT of money for that sand because it's teeming with microbes.

I think what other posters are suggesting is that because you used the live sand, your tank is essentially cycled, but you're not yet seeing nitrates because there's not much for ammonia at this point.

When I started my tanks, I definitely had something of a 'mini-cycle' that really lasted a couple of weeks. There's so much life in the TBS sand and rocks, and even though they ship it quickly and carefully, there is without a doubt going to be die off. This die off, in my opinion, is all the ammonia you need to get your tank going.

For dry rock and sand, I'm a fan of bottled bacteria and bottled ammonium chloride, but I WOULD NOT add the ammonium chloride to your system. I'd be afraidyou'd add so much ammonia that you'd cause more die-off of the microbes you're hoping to cultivate.

In this case, I'd ghost feed some flaked or pellets, and see if you start to record some nitrates.

And FYI - You're going to love the rocks when you get them

Good luck with your tank!

 

[Formulator]

Hello! I started two small tanks last November using TBS sand and rock, so maybe I can help. You absolutely do not need to add any additional bottled bacteria to your system; you paid A LOT of money for that sand because it's teeming with microbes.

I think what other posters are suggesting is that because you used the live sand, your tank is essentially cycled, but you're not yet seeing nitrates because there's not much for ammonia at this point.

When I started my tanks, I definably had something of a 'mini-cycle' that really lasted a couple of weeks. There's so much life in the TBS sand and rocks, and even though they ship it quickly and carefully, there is without a doubt going to be die off. This die off, in my opinion, is all the ammonia you need to get your tank going.

For dry rock and sand, I'm a fan of bottled bacteria and bottled ammonium chloride, but I WOULD NOT add the ammonium chloride to your system. I'd be afraidyou'd add so much ammonia that you'd cause more die-off of the microbes you're hoping to cultivate.

In this case, I'd ghost feed some flaked or pellets, and see if you start to record some nitrates.

And FYI - You're going to love the rocks when you get them

Good luck with your tank!

Glad you chimed in! I did not realize the TSB stuff was such high quality. I don’t consider most of the live sand like the arag-alive stuff from caribsea to be much different from dry sand. At least I don’t put it anywhere close to comparable to live rock.

 

[Brisk]

Hello! I started two small tanks last November using TBS sand and rock, so maybe I can help. You absolutely do not need to add any additional bottled bacteria to your system; you paid A LOT of money for that sand because it's teeming with microbes.

I think what other posters are suggesting is that because you used the live sand, your tank is essentially cycled, but you're not yet seeing nitrates because there's not much for ammonia at this point.

When I started my tanks, I definitely had something of a 'mini-cycle' that really lasted a couple of weeks. There's so much life in the TBS sand and rocks, and even though they ship it quickly and carefully, there is without a doubt going to be die off. This die off, in my opinion, is all the ammonia you need to get your tank going.

For dry rock and sand, I'm a fan of bottled bacteria and bottled ammonium chloride, but I WOULD NOT add the ammonium chloride to your system. I'd be afraidyou'd add so much ammonia that you'd cause more die-off of the microbes you're hoping to cultivate.

In this case, I'd ghost feed some flaked or pellets, and see if you start to record some nitrates.

And FYI - You're going to love the rocks when you get them

Good luck with your tank!

Thank you! I'll give that a try.

 

[Fish Fan]

Glad you chimed in! I did not realize the TSB stuff was such high quality. I don’t consider most of the live sand like the arag-alive stuff from caribsea to be much different from dry sand. At least I don’t put it anywhere close to comparable to live rock.

Yeah, the TBS sand is 'real deal', they collect it off the ocean floor just like their live rock. Definitely not the same as Arag-alive type sand in a bag. TBS is all good stuff, loaded with microbes, but the OP likely got snails, crabs, and other critters too.

Thank you! I'll give that a try.

Again, the TBS stuff is really, really great, your tank will settle down in no time. And I think you're doing the right thing by getting the sand first and the rock later. I ordered all at the same time, and I likely had more die off than necessary.

Best of luck!

 

[brandon429]

the sand is it's own surface area independent from the base rock that will soon be put in

no, the tank isn't cycled because you're aim is to cycle the rock incoming, what happens with the sand does not matter. we don't need bacteria from sand, they sold nothing special other than the claim to be disease free by running it through the DNA scanning system / classification system they use to rule out diseases. efficacy tbd over time and feedback from buyers, it's a relatively new offer in the retail world.

your cycle hasn't begun. the sand is an expendable source of material in a reef tank, in the nuisance algae we remove the sand from some tanks with dinos and we don't put the sand back until dinos are cured, because sandbeds are expendable surface area. when you remove sandbed bacteria instantly from a reef tank, no deficit in bacteria exists because the rocks retain their own bacteria, independent from sand and their surface area is presented much better vs just the sandbed at the very bottom plane vs in the dead center of water mass like live rock juts into... that makes sand an inefficient filter compared to flow-through or midwater systems.

I agree the sand you have is cycled for sure. that's what they're selling: disease free (claimed) skip cycle material. for sure it's bacteria inoculated and matured I believe that part 100%.

what isn't expendable in reef filtration design are the rocks those will carry your fish bioload because they present within the wastewater column as a 3d jutting structure dead center in the tank. they present big surface area + filtration bacteria + photosynthetic plants as the ammonia command (when matured) that hasn't even arrived yet.

the sand is inconsequential to the cycle because it can be removed in full from any reef tank and not leave a deficit of bacteria.

but if you pulled all the live rock out of someone's tank and left all the fish in just water....that system has no filtration surface area, it'll crash depending in degree of fish + waste accumulation rates. it'll trend towards crashing due to lack of surface area = rule of wastewater controls science. the end impact to you is run that test once you feel your live rock structure is cycled then post back. add an ammonia load after you think the rock is cycled and see if the kit shows up/down motion over 24-48 hrs.

B

 

[jabberwock]

No bottled bacteria! Waste of money in any circumstance. Yes, ghost feed and wait for your TBS real ocean live rock! I would let it sit in the tank for a week to see if there are any undesirable hitchhikers you can pluck out. I think ghost feeding looks like a small amount of food every other day. You are in for a real treat with TBS real ocean live rock! Check out my tank thread to see my experience! Can we see pics when the rock arrives?

 

[Fish Fan]

no, the tank isn't cycled because you're aim is to cycle the rock incoming, what happens with the sand does not matter. we don't need bacteria from sand, they sold nothing special other than the claim to be disease free, if you believe them.

I believe you're mistaken about the sand Tampa Bay Saltwater sells. They do not claim it to be free of diseases. To the opposite, the sand is pulled up from the Gulf of Mexico, just like they do with their maricultured live rock. This sand is absolutely teeming with microbes and macro life, both good and bad, just as much as if the OP had used TBS live base rock.

https://tbsaltwater.com/shop/gulf-of-mexico-live-sand/

 

[Fish Fan]

No bottled bacteria! Waste of money in any circumstance. Yes, ghost feed and wait for your TBS real ocean live rock! I would let it sit in the tank for a week to see if there are any undesirable hitchhikers you can pluck out. I think ghost feeding looks like a small amount of food every other day. You are in for a real treat with TBS real ocean live rock! Check out my tank thread to see my experience! Can we see pics when the rock arrives?

^This!

 

[jabberwock]

the sand is it's own surface area independent from the base rock that will soon be put in

no, the tank isn't cycled because you're aim is to cycle the rock incoming, what happens with the sand does not matter. we don't need bacteria from sand, they sold nothing special other than the claim to be disease free by running it through the DNA scanning system / classification system they use to rule out diseases. efficacy tbd over time and feedback from buyers, it's a relatively new offer in the retail world.

your cycle hasn't begun. the sand is an expendable source of material in a reef tank, in the nuisance algae we remove the sand from some tanks with dinos and we don't put the sand back until dinos are cured, because sandbeds are expendable surface area. when you remove sandbed bacteria instantly from a reef tank, no deficit in bacteria exists because the rocks retain their own bacteria, independent from sand and their surface area is presented much better vs just the sandbed at the very bottom plane vs in the dead center of water mass like live rock juts into... that makes sand an inefficient filter compared to flow-through or midwater systems.

I agree the sand you have is cycled for sure. that's what they're selling: disease free (claimed) skip cycle material. for sure it's bacteria inoculated and matured I believe that part 100%.

what isn't expendable in reef filtration design are the rocks those will carry your fish bioload because they present within the wastewater column as a 3d jutting structure dead center in the tank. they present big surface area + filtration bacteria + photosynthetic plants as the ammonia command, that hasn't even arrived yet.

the sand is inconsequential to the cycle because it can be removed in full from any reef tank and not leave a deficit of bacteria.

but if you pulled all the live rock out of someone's tank and left all the fish in just water....that system has no filtration surface area, it'll crash depending in degree of fish + waste accumulation rates. it'll trend towards crashing due to lack of surface area = rule of wastewater controls science. the end impact to you is run that test once you feel your live rock structure is cycled then post back

B

Poppycock!

 

[Reefering1]

the sand is it's own surface area independent from the base rock that will soon be put in

no, the tank isn't cycled because you're aim is to cycle the rock incoming, what happens with the sand does not matter. we don't need bacteria from sand, they sold nothing special other than the claim to be disease free by running it through the DNA scanning system / classification system they use to rule out diseases. efficacy tbd over time and feedback from buyers, it's a relatively new offer in the retail world.

your cycle hasn't begun. the sand is an expendable source of material in a reef tank, in the nuisance algae we remove the sand from some tanks with dinos and we don't put the sand back until dinos are cured, because sandbeds are expendable surface area. when you remove sandbed bacteria instantly from a reef tank, no deficit in bacteria exists because the rocks retain their own bacteria, independent from sand and their surface area is presented much better vs just the sandbed at the very bottom plane vs in the dead center of water mass like live rock juts into... that makes sand an inefficient filter compared to flow-through or midwater systems.

I agree the sand you have is cycled for sure. that's what they're selling: disease free (claimed) skip cycle material. for sure it's bacteria inoculated and matured I believe that part 100%.

what isn't expendable in reef filtration design are the rocks those will carry your fish bioload because they present within the wastewater column as a 3d jutting structure dead center in the tank. they present big surface area + filtration bacteria + photosynthetic plants as the ammonia command (when matured) that hasn't even arrived yet.

the sand is inconsequential to the cycle because it can be removed in full from any reef tank and not leave a deficit of bacteria.

but if you pulled all the live rock out of someone's tank and left all the fish in just water....that system has no filtration surface area, it'll crash depending in degree of fish + waste accumulation rates. it'll trend towards crashing due to lack of surface area = rule of wastewater controls science. the end impact to you is run that test once you feel your live rock structure is cycled then post back. add an ammonia load after you think the rock is cycled and see if the kit shows up/down motion over 24-48 hrs.

B

But if the "cycle" bacteria population is always in flux, expanding with load, why wouldn't it expand into the rocks as the need arise? This isn't complicated. Just don't dump 20 fish on there on day 1

 

[Uncle99]

But should I be seeing nitrates if it is instant cycle?

Not necessarily. No bio load and live sand.
If this is TBS live sand (from the ocean) IMO, your more than cycled versus bottled stuff.

Rock adds further surface area permitting higher populations of the good guys.