Advice on observation of Bimac Anthias in QT.

[Reef_Ninjas]

I have a quick question and looking for some advice. I have 3 Bimac Anthias that I have had in QT since March 23nd.

When I bought them from my LFS, they were in copper for the previous 1.5 months. My LFS also runs prazi once a week and feed metro soaked food.

Up until this point I haven’t noticed any issues with the Anthias. I have not dosed any thing because of how long they were at the LFS and I didn’t want to over due it. However, it has now been 39 days and they are very active, eating, no scratching or flashing, no heavy breathing. The only thing I have noticed is some stringy poop from one of them that was whiteish and one that looked like it was moving like a worm on the sand-bed lol.

Is there anything else I should look for? Would you still do preventative medication to be safe? Could these fish hide anything for this long? Should I leave them unmediated and in observation for a longer period?

Any info helps!

Thanks,

Reef Ninja

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I would personally deworm with either levamisole or fenbendazole if you're still seeing stools like that. Both do a pretty good job on ascarids, and fenbendazole does intestinal flatworms as well if done at the right dose for a long enough period, potentially killing those prazi-resistant strains of flatworms.

With either of these drugs, I'd definitely watch water quality, though especially with levamisole. For whatever reason, it seems to always make ammonia spike from crashing the biological bacteria.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a quick question and looking for some advice. I have 3 Bimac Anthias that I have had in QT since March 23nd.

When I bought them from my LFS, they were in copper for the previous 1.5 months. My LFS also runs prazi once a week and feed metro soaked food.

Up until this point I haven’t noticed any issues with the Anthias. I have not dosed any thing because of how long they were at the LFS and I didn’t want to over due it. However, it has now been 39 days and they are very active, eating, no scratching or flashing, no heavy breathing. The only thing I have noticed is some stringy poop from one of them that was whiteish and one that looked like it was moving like a worm on the sand-bed lol.

Is there anything else I should look for? Would you still do preventative medication to be safe? Could these fish hide anything for this long? Should I leave them unmediated and in observation for a longer period?

Any info helps!

Thanks,

Reef Ninja

They are past the point of quarantined and glad to hear doing well. Regarding the white feces, Im pretty sure not an internal issue but rather excess mucus in the stomach lining especially if you regularly feeding them Mysis and/or brine shrimp.

 

[Reef_Ninjas]

They are past the point of quarantined and glad to hear doing well. Regarding the white feces, Im pretty sure not an internal issue but rather excess mucus in the stomach lining especially if you regularly feeding them Mysis and/or brine shrimp.

Yeah I started feeding them mysis a few times a week.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yeah I started feeding them mysis a few times a week.

Change up and add to foods, LRS fish frenzy, TDO pellets, plankton and chopped krill

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I would personally deworm with either levamisole or fenbendazole if you're still seeing stools like that. Both do a pretty good job on ascarids, and fenbendazole does intestinal flatworms as well if done at the right dose for a long enough period, potentially killing those prazi-resistant strains of flatworms.

With either of these drugs, I'd definitely watch water quality, though especially with levamisole. For whatever reason, it seems to always make ammonia spike from crashing the biological bacteria.

Nematodes often don’t cause mucus feces as a symptom. Those two drugs mostly worked against non-encysted nematodes. Fenbendazole as a bath is known to cause species-specific mortality that is unpredictable, so I’ve stopped using it myself.

“Prazi resistant parasites” is actually a misnomer. It refers to cases where after multiple doses, prazi seems to stop working or needs higher doses. What is actually happening is that heterotrophic bacteria grows that utilizes prazi as a food source, rendering it less effective over time. These bacteria can persist in a given aquarium long after the last prazi dose.

 

[Reef_Ninjas]

Change up and add to foods, LRS fish frenzy, TDO pellets, plankton and chopped krill

Do you feel I should do a peroxide dip or use safety stop or anything before I transfer to my main display. I’m so nervous they are hiding something lol

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Nematodes often don’t cause mucus feces as a symptom. Those two drugs mostly worked against non-encysted nematodes. Fenbendazole as a bath is known to cause species-specific mortality that is unpredictable, so I’ve stopped using it myself.

“Prazi resistant parasites” is actually a misnomer. It refers to cases where after multiple doses, prazi seems to stop working or needs higher doses. What is actually happening is that heterotrophic bacteria grows that utilizes prazi as a food source, rendering it less effective over time. These bacteria can persist in a given aquarium long after the last prazi dose.

I've seen flukes, not intestinal worms, where giving a prazi bath does not seem to affect them, even at a double dose. So far all from the same LFS, especially on butterflies, dwarf angels, and tilefish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've seen flukes, not intestinal worms, where giving a prazi bath does not seem to affect them, even at a double dose. So far all from the same LFS, especially on butterflies, dwarf angels, and tilefish.

I’ve not seen that ever, not in 30 years of using it. I would first consider expired prazi, incorrect dose or even mistaking turbellarians for flukes.

Prazi doesn’t kill flukes, it just causes them to dislodge from the fish and then they can’t reattach and die.

That said, prazi treatments often fail, for the bacterial reasons I mentioned, but also the need to break the life cycle of egg laying species. That is so difficult to do that I now use hyposalinity for 30 days to control egg laying species.

There are limited reports of prazi resistance in cestodes in pet dogs and cats, but no reports in the literature for aquarium fish. There are a few reports of resistance developing in food fishes, but when it is dosed orally.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Do you feel I should do a peroxide dip or use safety stop or anything before I transfer to my main display. I’m so nervous they are hiding something lol

Peroxide is an oxidizer and will do little if anything for this

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I

I’ve not seen that ever, not in 30 years of using it. I would first consider expired prazi, incorrect dose or even mistaking turbellarians for flukes.

Prazi doesn’t kill flukes, it just causes them to dislodge from the fish and then they can’t reattach and die.

That said, prazi treatments often fail, for the bacterial reasons I mentioned, but also the need to break the life cycle of egg laying species. That is so difficult to do that I now use hyposalinity for 30 days to control egg laying species.

There are limited reports of prazi resistance in cestodes in pet dogs and cats, but no reports in the literature for aquarium fish. There are a few reports of resistance developing in food fishes, but when it is dosed orally.

I never had issues before until purchasing from 1 local store here in SE Michigan that constantly treats their tanks with prazi.

This pic is a skunk tilefish that was given a 15 minute bath in clean freshwater with a double dose of unexpired, well shaken Prazi-Pro. The photo was immediately after the bath. Some but not all the flukes dropped off, and you can see at least 3 still attached (most obvious one on the eye) in the photo. I end up keeping any fish from that store (they have a better selection than any other store since they import) in hyposalinity at a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days. Cleared up most issues I've ever seen from their fish, minus the Uronema.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I

I never had issues before until purchasing from 1 local store here in SE Michigan that constantly treats their tanks with prazi.

This pic is a skunk tilefish that was given a 15 minute bath in clean freshwater with a double dose of unexpired, well shaken Prazi-Pro. The photo was immediately after the bath. Some but not all the flukes dropped off, and you can see at least 3 still attached (most obvious one on the eye) in the photo. I end up keeping any fish from that store (they have a better selection than any other store since they import) in hyposalinity at a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days. Cleared up most issues I've ever seen from their fish, minus the Uronema.

Perhaps they produced their own strain that is resistant. Researchers have been able to create schistisomes with partial resistance to prazi in the lab. At the very least the prazi they are constantly adding is just feeding the bacteria.

I’ve never used prazi and FW together as a short term bath like that. I always use prazi as a 24 bath. Some people go with a higher dose, 3 hour bath, but I try to avoid that extra handling of the fish. 15 minutes of freshwater alone should have killed all of the Neobenedenia without using prazi at all…but many fish can’t tolerate that long.


Did you just shake the prazi, or did you express it through a fine mesh? I hate using ethanol as a solvent due to carbon loading, but getting a slurry into suspension can sometimes be a challenge.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Perhaps they produced their own strain that is resistant. Researchers have been able to create schistisomes with partial resistance to prazi in the lab. At the very least the prazi they are constantly adding is just feeding the bacteria.

I’ve never used prazi and FW together as a short term bath like that. I always use prazi as a 24 bath. Some people go with a higher dose, 3 hour bath, but I try to avoid that extra handling of the fish. 15 minutes of freshwater alone should have killed all of the Neobenedenia without using prazi at all…but many fish can’t tolerate that long.


Did you just shake the prazi, or did you express it through a fine mesh? I hate using ethanol as a solvent due to carbon loading, but getting a slurry into suspension can sometimes be a challenge.

Vigorously shaken for 90 seconds before use.

The freshwater/double dose prazi combo bath was an experiment, after prazi dosed at the regular strength once every 8 days for 3 weeks, and 10 minute freshwater baths failed to clear the flukes. Discussed it with another local hobbyist who works in public aquaria and decided it was worth doing the experiment to see. Ultimately 30 days of hypo cleared the fish, so it is what I've used for all fish since then.

Myself and a few other local hobbyists have all found the same with flukes/fish from this store. Last time I was in there, I pointed out flukes on some of the butterflies and the owner's solution was grab a bottle of prazi off the shelf, not shake it, pop it open and pour an unmeasured quantity into the tank... tried to talk to him about it, but "he's been doing this for years and knows what he's doing." I am hesitant with fish from his shop because of this, the frequent uronema, and I've had cyanide collected fish from the same shop, but they have pretty good pricing and some of the best selection locally, often carrying things no other stores carry. I just make sure EVERYTHING gets quarantined.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Vigorously shaken for 90 seconds before use.

The freshwater/double dose prazi combo bath was an experiment, after prazi dosed at the regular strength once every 8 days for 3 weeks, and 10 minute freshwater baths failed to clear the flukes. Discussed it with another local hobbyist who works in public aquaria and decided it was worth doing the experiment to see. Ultimately 30 days of hypo cleared the fish, so it is what I've used for all fish since then.

Myself and a few other local hobbyists have all found the same with flukes/fish from this store. Last time I was in there, I pointed out flukes on some of the butterflies and the owner's solution was grab a bottle of prazi off the shelf, not shake it, pop it open and pour an unmeasured quantity into the tank... tried to talk to him about it, but "he's been doing this for years and knows what he's doing." I am hesitant with fish from his shop because of this, the frequent uronema, and I've had cyanide collected fish from the same shop, but they have pretty good pricing and some of the best selection locally, often carrying things no other stores carry. I just make sure EVERYTHING gets quarantined.

I see. Well, I'm still not sure this indicates prazi resistance, as this fluke also was resistant to FW dips. The failure of the first three prazi treatments doesn't prove resistance, as I mentioned, breaking the life cycle of Neobenedenia is difficult to do with prazi due to their eggs.

I think 15 minutes is too short for prazi to work, yet too long to be a safe FW dip. Here is another possible scenario - Not every Capsalid is Neobenedenia. There is a thought that in some cases, brackish water capsalids get into aquariums. These are more resistant to osmotic therapy. If this store got some population of these into their tanks, and since their use of prazi was incorrect (I presume they weren't stripping and sterilizing their tanks to remove the prazi consuming bacteria) then this parasite could be on the fish leaving their store.

Ultimately, even if it was resistance, due to the way the supply chain works, each population that develops would be a literal "dead end" with the end purchaser. Fish are sold and leave the store and rarely return or move to another person's tank. Resistance of parasites becomes a major issue for reproducing populations - people in a region being treated for malaria, or fish being propagated in fish farms.

I should explain why I’m “down” on this theory of resistance - there are some things in this hobby that get spread around and misapplied. Stray voltage is a prime example - it has never been proven as causation for any malady, yet even beginning aquarists will tell you it causes HLLE (grin). I hear “prazi resistant flukes” so often that it just causes the same reaction with me!

I'm continuing to keep an eye out for studies that indicate there is true resistance developing, and that it is widespread in the industry.

Can you PM the name of the store to me? I’m curious because I live in SE Michigan.

Jay